Do you use a spinnaker when you're single/shorthanded?

[mrming]

Dan - as someone who has experimented with both kinds of kites (albeit on a small, racy but non-planing keelboat), here's what I've learned:

The asymmetric is much less hassle to hoist, gybe and drop.

Asymmetrics tend to be larger, and when it's windy our 37sqm sail is a bit of a handful, requiring close coordination between driver and trimmer. Not a concern for your light weather antics.

The sailing the angles thing is only worth it if your boat can plane easily and bring the apparent wind forward, allowing you to bear away in the process (I presume an Osprey with one crew is very much in that category but I don't know the boats well so feel free to correct me).

There's also another important factor which was alluded to earlier in the thread. We race in a narrow tidal river where the prevailing wind means it's usually a run or a broad reach downwind. You usually either have to get right into the shallows to avoid adverse current, or stay in the deep water to keep in favourable current. An asymmetric is not suitable in either situation, as sailing the angles takes you repeatedly into the unfavourable current and back again.

You can't sail anywhere near DDW with an asymmetric unless you have a canting sprint (like a Mini 6.5) or you fly one from a conventional pole (negating the ease of use benefit). The talk of goose winging is nonsense - you would have to pole out the clew which again is too much complexity for a single hander.

Our boat came with a nearly new a-sail and a fancy Selden bowsprit, and I spent a season gybing back and forth just crossing the sterns of my competitors before I cracked and bought / set up a conventional kite. Very occasionally if there is a long reach in the course we'll break it out, but the rest of the time it sits downstairs unused and unloved while we sail down the run with our symmetrical kite, laughing at our earlier foolishness.

 

[fireball]

£50 a cleat ?! WTF are you shopping?

Pump action Spinnaker Cleat - £13.95 from a wind scale chandlers - that wasn't even looking for a cheap deal.

Oh - the elaborate bungee take-up system - it's a few blocks with a bungee ffs ....

And how many of them are single-handers?

I've launched the kite on the RS400 and ISO whilst singlehanding. The 2k has the option of running a halyard back around the thwart so the helm can hoist and the RS800 has the same and it's quite common for the helm to hoist whilst standing up with the tiller between his/her knees - again, I've done this myself in an RS800 although I did have a crew onboard at the time.
Pole action on the Wayfarer, Merlin and 505 would probably be set up for the crew - Halyard could be either - but these are deliberately set up for 2 handed racing where they want to launch and recover quickly and effectively. Our Dan will obviously need to consider the cost benefit to this sort of system - and TBH I doubt it's worth it if buying new - but he best he knows the options ...

BobC - Do you actually know anything about dinghy spinnaker systems?

 

[fireball]

Thanks to all, for your helpful advice; although I'm still left wondering what to do, possibly because there is no clear straightforward solution.

No - there isn't.

On the one hand I'd like to be able to say I can handle a symmetric spinnaker, and I've every opportunity to learn since I already have the equipment...

If you've already got all this stuff then why not rig it and try it - one of the things I think stood people in good stead was understanding how a symmetric kite works - how to set the guy correctly etc etc - it doesn't translate totally into asymmetrics, but there is a lot of similarity.

...so the apparent simplicity of an asymmetric remains seriously tempting for singlehanding. I'm even beginning to think of making those holes in the bow and deck.

Problem with the Assymetric with a fixed pole is that you have to sail at an angle to the wind and not DDW if you want it to fill (unless you've got long arms and can hang out the side like I've done on the rare occasion) - the RS400 has a moving pole that can be swung side to side that does improve on this, but none of it DDW.

.it can be faster to go DDW in very light airs than trying to tack downwind...I have goosewinged an asymmetric.

With a second sprit or pole? If that's a serious option, an asymmetric must be smart answer for my purposes - because it'd be a boon on reaches, and can pull DDW.
[/quote] - Er ... by hand because I was racing and therefore not allowed any extra kit

The temptation of a masthead kite comes from the extremely light conditions in which I'd use it...so I was thinking the top of the mast wouldn't be in much danger of damage.

If I added further shrouds/stiffening to the top of the mast, wouldn't I be changing its intended bend-characteristics, which as they are, prevent gusts from overpowering the rig?

Look at 505's - they introduced a new larger kite that enters the mast above the shrouds - I don't know how far or if the mast is altered to accommodate this though - it's not mast head though!

 

[Bobc]

BobC - Do you actually know anything about dinghy spinnaker systems?

No not really. I've only ever sailed Merlins, 470s, 505s, Cherubs, I14s, B14s, 12ft Skiffs, 18ft Skiifs, currently have 2 x 12ft Skiffs and an Asymmetric Canoe (with said automatic cleats x 2), and the best I ever managed at National level was 1st.

Maybe I should keep my opinions to myself seeing as I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[Bobc]

If I added further shrouds/stiffening to the top of the mast, wouldn't I be changing its intended bend-characteristics, which as they are, prevent gusts from overpowering the rig?

With caps, you can set them with pre-bend if you want, but most use them as "check shrouds", so they're only just tight with the main up and some kicker on. It just stops the tip of the mast from going any further forwards, because if that happens you get a nasty s-bend occuring and the mast usually lets go in a backwards direction at the main spreaders. It also adds weight, cost,complexity, and windage to the rig, and in your case is somply not worth the aggro.

 

[Greenheart]

The asymmetric is much less hassle to hoist, gybe and drop.

The sailing the angles thing is only worth it if your boat can plane easily and bring the apparent wind forward, allowing you to bear away in the process (I presume an Osprey with one crew is very much in that category but I don't know the boats well so feel free to correct me).

There's also another important factor which was alluded to earlier in the thread. We race in a narrow tidal river where the prevailing wind means it's usually a run or a broad reach downwind. You usually either have to get right into the shallows to avoid adverse current, or stay in the deep water to keep in favourable current. An asymmetric is not suitable in either situation, as sailing the angles takes you repeatedly into the unfavourable current and back again.

You can't sail anywhere near DDW with an asymmetric unless you have a canting sprint (like a Mini 6.5) or you fly one from a conventional pole (negating the ease of use benefit). The talk of goose winging is nonsense - you would have to pole out the clew which again is too much complexity for a single hander.

Thank you Mr Ming...(and everyone - I can't keep up with the pace of incoming advice...please don't be offended if I appear to have ignored recent contributions! :encouragement

...if anyone thought there was nothing to question about spinnaker use, and about which type is best, I reckon we've explored and explained the ups and downs of both, here!

I'm sure an Osprey (even mine, laden with enough kit to shame a racer) is light enough with only me aboard to plane readily, though not necessarily in the conditions I speak of.

I get the point about the unhelpfulness of having to steer angles (and much greater distance) in a constricted tideway...such a location won't suit conventional asymmetric use...

...but my thought about a system for use in the very lightest winds, leads me to think poling an asymmetric out opposite the mainsail, needn't be too much bother...at least, no more hassle than hoisting a symmetric spinnaker and attending to the pole, uphaul, downhaul, lazy and active guys and sheets (see where my reluctance comes from?)...

...poling out the asymm might be impossible in a breeze, but surely manageable when there's only enough wind to keep the boom from loitering amidships, and it would be as you say, often more productive than sailing angles.

Plus, although at present I sail mostly in constricted, tide-dominated areas, I'd like my wardrobe to include a sail to suit a longish reach across open water, when I get there.

On balance I'm still thinking asymmetric. Assuming my existing pole won't substitute for a bowsprit, it can lie on the floor waiting to be used as a goose-winging accessory.

With caps...most use them as "check shrouds"...It adds weight, cost, complexity, and windage to the rig, and in your case is simply not worth the aggro.

I hear that. So...a medium asymmetric. The hardest part may be finding one second hand...harder than I thought.

 

[fireball]

No not really. I've only ever sailed Merlins, 470s, 505s, Cherubs, I14s, B14s, 12ft Skiffs, 18ft Skiifs, currently have 2 x 12ft Skiffs and an Asymmetric Canoe (with said automatic cleats x 2), and the best I ever managed at National level was 1st.

Maybe I should keep my opinions to myself seeing as I clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

Thats ok - perhaps you should've started smaller - Mirrors, 420, Fireball etc etc ...

I only questioned because what you said made no sense to me* whatsoever - so wondered if this was big boat influence or not. This world would be boring if we all had the same opinions ...



*I'm predominately a dinghy racer - and have been for the last 4 decades ...

 

[Bobc]

So...a medium asymmetric. The hardest part may be finding one second hand...harder than I thought.

RS400 kite will do it, and you'll only want about 2ft of bowsprit.

 

[Bobc]

Thats ok - perhaps you should've started smaller - Mirrors, 420, Fireball etc etc ...

I only questioned because what you said made no sense to me* whatsoever - so wondered if this was big boat influence or not. This world would be boring if we all had the same opinions ...



*I'm predominately a dinghy racer - and have been for the last 4 decades ...

No sweat.

The system on the Canoe has (just going from the back of the kite sock to where the haliyard goes into the mast), 3 cleats (one up, one down, one for the tensioner), 11 microblocks, 2 pump cleats, and 2 handles. Total cost? I bet you wouldn't get much change from £200. And then there's the fact that you need to use that low-friction dyneema string which is about £5/m. Utter madness!

 

[Greenheart]

RS400 kite will do it, and you'll only want about 2ft of bowsprit.

That's interesting because the sprit must stick out four or five feet beyond the bow of the RS400...will a shorter sprit be needed because the Osprey is a few feet longer?

Funny thing is, in spite of how many RS boats there are, I can't find any price-list for their new replacement sails, nor any for sale 2nd hand, anywhere.

 

[Bobc]

That's interesting because the sprit must stick out four or five feet beyond the bow of the RS400...will a shorter sprit be needed because the Osprey is a few feet longer?

Funny thing is, in spite of how many RS boats there are, I can't find any price-list for their new replacement sails, nor any for sale 2nd hand, anywhere.

Yes, the 2 key measurements are the horizontal distance from the mast to the pole, and the height of the hoist from the deck. The Osprey foredeck is good 12-18 inches longer than a 400, so shorter pole by the same amount. If you like, I'll take the measurements for you from the one I crew at the club.

There are loads of old 400 kites around, you just need to know where to look. I'll see if I can rustle one up for you.

 

[fireball]

No sweat.

The system on the Canoe has (just going from the back of the kite sock to where the haliyard goes into the mast), 3 cleats (one up, one down, one for the tensioner), 11 microblocks, 2 pump cleats, and 2 handles. Total cost? I bet you wouldn't get much change from £200. And then there's the fact that you need to use that low-friction dyneema string which is about £5/m. Utter madness!

You're forgetting that this is Dan we're talking to here ... he's not after a Canoe system that needs to raise and lower the kite as quickly and efficiently as possible - just one handed ... that's a big difference ...

Anyway - I don't think single handed halyards are required, he'll have a bungee and can use two hands - so it's a bit of a dead discussion!

 

[Bobc]

You're forgetting that this is Dan we're talking to here ... he's not after a Canoe system that needs to raise and lower the kite as quickly and efficiently as possible - just one handed ... that's a big difference ...

Anyway - I don't think single handed halyards are required, he'll have a bungee and can use two hands - so it's a bit of a dead discussion!

That was the point I was originally trying to make when you suggested pump cleats

All he needs is a continuous single line uphaul/downhaul that he can pull from the helm position.

 

[Greenheart]

The Osprey foredeck is good 12-18 inches longer than a 400, so shorter pole by the same amount. If you like, I'll take the measurements for you from the one I crew at the club. There are loads of old 400 kites around, you just need to know where to look. I'll see if I can rustle one up for you.

That would be very kind, Bob...I've had no luck at all, finding an RS400 kite for less cash than my whole boat cost me! There's no hurry, so if any of your sailing acquaintances are renewing their kites and have a less-than perfect old one which they'd part with for not a lot of money, I'd be very interested. Likewise, an old (or even broken) bowsprit. :encouragement:

I don't think single handed halyards are required, he'll have a bungee and can use two hands...

And I'll have lots of slightly mystified observers at the club ashore, keenly telling me how perfectly the system works in their class, with another pair of hands on headsails...

I'm not easily persuaded that the way things are done, is better than how I might modify the process...but all suggestions are always welcome. Well, most suggestions.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

its called a chute

My opsreys both had one and with barber haulers on a contuoise loop and a flyaway pole system - dead easy single handed if the wind is light enough to have it up

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks Euan...just reading your post, I can recall several descriptions of Ospreys being single-handed on a three-sail reach...those tales were one of the reasons I bought mine!

But...I'm convinced that an asymmetric will be less trouble to control, singlehanded. My Osprey may be twice the weight of something like an RS700, and I'm not aspiring to super-light performance, but just as the one-man skiffs all go the asymmetric way, I'd rather leapfrog the relative complexity of my symmetric spinnaker's control systems, and concentrate instead on learning to benefit from apparent wind, downwind. I'll still try poling-out the asymmetric for use dead downwind.

 

[Birdseye]

Leave it furled. I have been using exactly the same method as described earlier for well over 20 years now, never yet had any problems at all with it.

Fascinating. Way back in year dot when I was just beginning it was drummed into me that you should always unfurl the genny and then drop the kite behind it, so thats what I have always done. Your boat isnt much smaller than mine and both are masthead spinnakers so whats possible for you should be for me as well. No doubt you have a wind speed limit at which you drop the kite - what is it roughly.

You can maybe hear the sound of pennies dropping! I have never understood why people do the letter box drop but this makes sense if you havent unfurled the genny. If you have unfurled it doesnt make sense to me.

Flaming! Comments welcome.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

Thanks Euan...just reading your post, I can recall several descriptions of Ospreys being single-handed on a three-sail reach...those tales were one of the reasons I bought mine!

But...I'm convinced that an asymmetric will be less trouble to control, singlehanded. My Osprey may be twice the weight of something like an RS700, and I'm not aspiring to super-light performance, but just as the one-man skiffs all go the asymmetric way, I'd rather leapfrog the relative complexity of my symmetric spinnaker's control systems, and concentrate instead on learning to benefit from apparent wind, downwind. I'll still try poling-out the asymmetric for use dead downwind.

Does your Osprey already have a Chute fitted. If so it works well with a continuous halyard running to a pully at the back of the boat then back to the chute as a retrieval line. Whether you go asymmetric or conventional i would use a chute if your boat has one. That all I way really saying as it makes the launch / recovery simpler if your short handed.

 

[flaming]

Fascinating. Way back in year dot when I was just beginning it was drummed into me that you should always unfurl the genny and then drop the kite behind it, so thats what I have always done. Your boat isnt much smaller than mine and both are masthead spinnakers so whats possible for you should be for me as well. No doubt you have a wind speed limit at which you drop the kite - what is it roughly.

You can maybe hear the sound of pennies dropping! I have never understood why people do the letter box drop but this makes sense if you havent unfurled the genny. If you have unfurled it doesnt make sense to me.

Flaming! Comments welcome.

Occasionally we might drop the kite without hoisting the jib first if we cross the finish line under kite. But only in light winds fully crewed. I wouldn't do it short handed and I wouldn't do it in any breeze. Just way to much potential for a stuff up and the kite getting away from the crew. Been there, done that, got the T-shirts... Having the jib just means a bigger area to blanket the kite behind, and that you don't have to be on a dead run to blanket it. I certainly prefer being a little off ddw when dropping short handed with the autohelm driving, especially when it's a bit rolly.

Letter boxing is just the next step. Super safe heavy airs drop. The letter box does two things, it ensures the kite is well hidden behind the main, and it allows you to use the boom as a kind of snubbing post for the kite, so that if it does somehow fill with wind you've got a chance of hanging on.

 

[Greenheart]

Does your Osprey already have a chute fitted? If so it works well...makes the launch / recovery simpler if you're short handed.

Mine doesn't have a chute, but I can see that being able to produce or extinguish the kite by alternate pulls on the same line, must make single-handing much easier, thanks...

...and if I go ahead and get an asymmetric, I'll have to fit a sprit anyway...so a chute won't exactly be a terrible carbuncle on a pristine example. No worse than my oars, anyway!