Do you ignore col regs

michaelchapman said:
I think he means if a ship is crossing from left to right across his path, i.e the pleasure boat is the stand on vessel, that we would in fact steer to port to go behind the ship instead of requiring the ship to take avoiding action.
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Exactly.
Sorry, I now realise that my "its helmsman" could be read both ways.
What I meant was the pleasure boat helmsman, of course.
 
michaelchapman said:
Tim??
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Do what you like. I've given up caring. The law is perfectly clear.
Every professional on the water knows it, and all but a miniscule minority abide by it.

BTW: Threads like this play right into the hands of those who want to see compulsory training, licensing, and registration imposed on us. I'm beginning to think they have a point, after all.
 
Anyone who has ever raced a dinghy or yacht for any length of time will either have protested another boat or been protested. If it goes to the protest committee its because BOTH vessels thought they were in the right on the water, and neither gave way, and have the facility to argue the toss 'in court' as it were, after the event.

As Tim B. rightly says 'We must all obey Col Regs', and I agree 100% as it happens. But if you are out moboing or sailing and both vessels think they are are in the right, what gives? Eventually somebody has to accept the ultimate Col Reg responsibility to avoid a collision. In these circumstances it could easily be the stand on boat that ultimately gives way, and you will never get away from this.

I don't think this alters our responsibility to obey Col Regs 100% of the time, its just a nod to human imperfection.

Tim
 
timbartlett said:
Do what you like. I've given up caring. The law is perfectly clear.
Every professional on the water knows it, and all but a miniscule minority abide by it.

BTW: Threads like this play right into the hands of those who want to see compulsory training, licensing, and registration imposed on us. I'm beginning to think they have a point, after all.
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But the law never came into it, did it. There was never any risk of collision. The only way a collision could happen, is by blindly carrying straight on. Then we would find out just how fast a ship could turn or stop.

But we don't know how fast a ship can turn or stop, because we never asked it to. I'll leave it for you to cross a few ships bows in order to find out.
 
hlb said:
But the law never came into it, did it.
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That's like saying the Road Traffic Acts don't apply to you if you don't have an accident.
And perhaps you haven't noticed that the full title of the colregs is the "International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea". It's a bit late to start trying to prevent a collision if you don't apply the rules until after it has happened, isn't it? (And yes, the colregs are law: they are not just "guidance" or a "code of practice")
hlb said:
The only way a collision could happen, is by blindly carrying straight on.
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No. There are lots of ways of having a collision. One of them is by turning to port to "go behind" a ship that has already started to alter course to go behind you.
hlb said:
But we don't know how fast a ship can turn or stop,
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Some of us do know how fast ships can turn or stop. But for some reason, some others don't want to know.
Those of us who do know how fast ships can turn also know (because we've experienced it) that a ship can start to turn a lot quicker if it moving in a straight line than if it is turning in the opposite direction to begin with. So it is not expecting a lot to ask a ship to alter course by (say) ten or twenty degrees to starboard at a range of three miles. It's a lot more difficult for the ship to stop her starboard swing and convert it into a forty degree alteration to port at a range of two miles because some twat thinks the colregs don't apply to him just because he thinks he's rich and bought his own boat to prove it.
 
timbartlett said:
It's a lot more difficult for the ship to stop her starboard swing and convert it into a forty degree alteration to port at a range of two miles because some twat thinks the colregs don't apply to him just because he thinks he's rich and bought his own boat to prove it.
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C'mon Tim, insisting on this only goes to prove that you have no clue of what really happen at sea on a daily basis.
Ships do NOT take action when crossing a stand on small craft, unless as an extreme emergency measure.
They EXPECT stand on pleasure boats to take action, regardless of colregs, because they know PERFECTLY that this is what happen 99.99% of the time.
And this doesn't bother them one iota.
Why does it drive you nuts instead?
 
timbartlett said:
Good idea.

Out there in the real life situation, a 245m ship can turn through 360º in about 1000m. The rate of turn increases (and the radius reduces) as the turn progresses, but even so, she could she could turn through about 20º in less than half a mile, and less than two minutes.


Hang on, a moment ago you were arguing that it couldn't alter course quickly enough. Now you are suggesting that in a shorter distance it can not only stop its original swing but reverse it!

Tim I have tried so hard to maintain a civil tone with you however you persist in your aggressive response , again your keyboard theories dont take much note of realism, in two minutes I have covered 1 NM , when added to the tankers closing speed I have already navigated safely around the tankers stern.
I made it perfectly clear it didnt matter if he altered, didnt alter or altered and back again. You are spending so much time preaching to inexperienced students is there a possibility that you have loss sight of real life ? other wise how do you explain your inconsistencies with so many experienced pleasure boat skippers on this forum , that includes 80% sail and 80% power ? and before you claim inaccuracy with the poll, do you own to disprove the existing one and stop blaming me for the whole forums response.
you need to ask yourself a very simple question

If standing on to commercial shipping is confined to so few boats , can you really state that the commercial skippers expect you to stand on ?

Not sure how old you are Tim but perhaps times have changed, perhaps the Ouzo was the trigger ?
Perhaps we are all more H&S concious but one thing is certain, the majority are no longer prepared to play chicken with an oil tanker.

Jolly good. Were you aware of the different rules that apply to Traffic Separation Schemes? Or did you ignore those too?
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Whats your problem, do you think you can loose one argument and start on a new one in the hope no one will notice .

Mess with the TSS off Dover and there will be a spotter plane taking your name and a significant fine on the way, I am confident my navigation was perfectly executed thankyou.
 
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timbartlett said:
That's like saying the Road Traffic Acts don't apply to you if you don't have an accident.
And perhaps you haven't noticed that the full title of the colregs is the "International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea". It's a bit late to start trying to prevent a collision if you don't apply the rules until after it has happened, isn't it? (And yes, the colregs are law: they are not just "guidance" or a "code of practice")
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The colregs apply when there is the potential for a collision. A sailing boat is not obliged to stand on and carry on in a straight line regardless if there happens to be a ship on the horizon.

There is a potential ambiguity as to when one vessel can consider the situation to be a potential collision situation and another considers that the situation is not (e.g. because of better instrumentation it can see the projected tracks of both vessels etc).

A sailing boat does not go in a straight line at a constant speed - even under auto pilot. So its projected track vs a ship can change all the time.
 
MapisM said:
C'mon Tim, insisting on this only goes to prove that you have no clue of what really happen at sea on a daily basis. Ships do NOT take action when crossing a stand on small craft, unless as an extreme emergency measure.
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What you have just written clearly shows that you do not have a clue what goes on on the bridge of a ship.
MapisM said:
They EXPECT stand on pleasure boats to take action, regardless of colregs, because they know PERFECTLY that this is what happen 99.99% of the time.
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Ignoring the ludicrous statistic: yes, of course they expect stand-on pleasure boats to take action, because they know (just as I do) that many recreational skippers do not know or apply the colregs. In some ways, it's a bit like me on a motorbike: I expect car drivers to be blind and incompetent because that is the way many of them behave, but it doesn't mean that I do not prefer it when they drive sensibly..
MapisM said:
Why does it drive you nuts instead?
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It doesn't drive me nuts. I don't understand why people find it so difficult to believe simple statements of verifiable fact. And yes, I do take offence when people resort to lies and insults as a substitute for informed and logical argument.

But if you want to continue breaking the law, then carry on. But don't resort to lies and libel just because I don't agree to follow your example.
 
There seems to be a fair amount of supposition here, not based on reality.

I have lost count of the number of times a ship has altered course for me in a sailing yacht, even in a TSS. Usually at a range of a few miles when it easy for them, and yes I can measure the range on radar in the cockpit. If they alter course a few degrees it takes all the stress out of the situation for both of us. I have to say it is always a nice surprise, as I am prepared to give way, including when I am supposedly the stand on vessel.

If the ship stands on I can always stop or alter course to go behind them at a respectful distance, which is what I suspect most yachties will do.
 
Don't know what possessed me but...

If you find a website that tracks AIS, you can monitor the movement of whole chunks of ocean. You can on some also filter the AIS signals from different types of ship. By moving mouse over each 'blip' you can see current course and speed...

I spent a couple of hours watching Southampton and English Channel/Dover on two screens this afternoon and have to say that the big stuff doesn't seem to alter course much. That's in no way conclusive and it could be that being January there ain't many day trippers out there? I'd have expected a few channel hoppers and thus some course changes for crossing traffic? Those changes I have seen seem to stick to any new course for quite some time and wouldn't appear to have been avoiding anything. I'm impressed how the cross-channel's nip through what I assume to be 'gaps' (I say 'appear' as they look on the map sometimes to go 'over' each other) - and I never realised they can do close to 30 knots! :eek:

I'm bored now, seeing ship-shapes before my eyes and my hand aches from mouse and scribbling down/updating courses, speeds and names (who'd have wanted to be an air traffic controller in the early days?) More worrying still, of the 54 I was tracking, I lost two altogether... :confused: (Yes, I could have used the 'search' facility to find them, but I was struggling to keep up as it was and could neither scribble fast enough nor risk losing the other 52!

That experiment over, I've concluded little more than from this debate, so I'm going to invoice those of you still squabbling for encouraging me to waste 2 hours of my life... :p :D
 
Skysail said:
I have lost count of the number of times a ship has altered course for me in a sailing yacht, even in a TSS. Usually at a range of a few miles when it easy for them, and yes I can measure the range on radar in the cockpit. If they alter course a few degrees it takes all the stress out of the situation for both of us. I have to say it is always a nice surprise, as I am prepared to give way, including when I am supposedly the stand on vessel.

If the ship stands on I can always stop or alter course to go behind them at a respectful distance, which is what I suspect most yachties will do.
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Pretty much describes my experiances.
 
You just could not make this up. Tim is supposed to be the expert. Which is a bit frightening for some. Mind I once dragged a yacht master off five different sand banks. He was a presenter for Midland TV. Great bloke, all the qualifications. I believed his waffle at first. But after a nights missed sleep, I did it my way.

I cant think how many times, I've clocked a ship up, a few miles ahead to the left. Now I could go down stairs, get it on radar and work out whether we would hit or not. But I dont bother. The boats on Auto, so about as straight as it can be. So I work out by eye, no I dont, I mostly just carry on till I see we wont fit in front. So I stop and wave at the crew whilst it passes. Theres actually very little wash off a ship at sea, so you can go quite close. I've never seen one go off line, which is fine by me. But lets be honest, a ship could not hit a mobo if it tried, short of fog or storm. It's far to easy to just go the other way.
 
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timbartlett said:
I don't understand why people find it so difficult to believe simple statements of verifiable fact. And yes, I do take offence when people resort to lies and insults as a substitute for informed and logical argument.
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Statements of verifiable fact?!?
A container ship steering 10 or 20 degrees to stbd at a 3nm range, and converting such maneuver into a 40 degrees to port due to the behaviour of a 30' boat?
And I'm the one who doesn't know what goes on on a ship's bridge? Perleeeeaase!

Besides, where did I resort to lies and insults, exactly?
 
timbartlett said:
The stand on rule was introduced in 1889. It's been reconsidered umpteen times since then. And it has survived: the wording of the 1889 Article 21 is still part of the current Rule 17.

It has been used and applied for 120 years, by professional mariners who rounded the Horn under sail, who fished the seas under sail, who carried cargoes around our coasts, who escorted convoys, fought wars, and picked up the pieces from war and shipwreck.
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Hmm, this sounds bang up to date then.
 
Tim,

Here you find a bunch of giggly pals delighting in a wind up.

They are just prodding things along to see who will bite.

They are not ashamed, but proud of themselves.

They probably dont even know what the sea looks like.

Ignore the bait.
 
MapisM said:
Statements of verifiable fact?!?
A container ship steering 10 or 20 degrees to stbd at a 3nm range, and converting such maneuver into a 40 degrees to port due to the behaviour of a 30' boat?
And I'm the one who doesn't know what goes on on a ship's bridge? Perleeeeaase!

Besides, where did I resort to lies and insults, exactly?
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At 3nm, I doubt that if they alter course, that it will be by more than a degree or two. Plenty enough to ensure they pass confortably in front or behind you. On a small boat you cannot detect this without some fancy electronics. They won't be turning through 30 degrees plus for you.

The only time I have ever got close to a ship, he went ahead of my bows crossing from right to left, I was under sail. He gave me a hoot to indicate he was turning to starboard, and then two hoots when he was past.

There was no way I could see any difference in his heading. He past several of his boat lengths ahead of me. I reckon he was about 150m - a smallish cargo ship doing about 12 knots.
 
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