LittleSister
Well-Known Member
Which is very naughty, as they are not 'not under command' as defined by the Colregs.
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)
Do ships get charged for anchoring?
- Thread starter Giblets
- Start date
Which is very naughty, as they are not 'not under command' as defined by the Colregs.
(Lights blue touch paper and retires!
)chrishelen
N/A
Diesel electric?
wadget
Well-Known Member
Diesel electric ships such as some cruise ships, ferries can slow down more easily than other larger ships. Container ships and large tankers tend to have large 2 stroke engines which for various reasons (which an engineer will hopefully explain shortly) can't go below a certain RPM for long periods.
Giblets
Well-Known Member
alant
Well-Known Member
Pilots availability + tugs in Southampton.
Also tide depth/wind strength & direction in docking area, will delay entry.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Back when I was a Junior Stoker in the RNR we could not run the deltics in the minesweeper slow for to long because there was too much carbon and unburnt fuel carried over which would lodge in the funnel before developing a very good funnel fire.
Sybarite
Well-Known Member
I ask because yesterday and the day before there was an oil tanker going backwards and forwards south of the Isle of Wight eventually going into Fawley last evening and now there is a vehicle carrier doing much the same south of the Nab Tower but not due to dock until midnight.
There may be tidal considerations but once alongside a ship has to pay demurrage. So it makes sense to stay out until everything is in place for loading and unloading.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
was the deltic the 32 cylinder train engine
Giblets
Well-Known Member
But Chesapeake Bay and another (Antares Leader also faffing about down there) are shown by VTS not to be on dock until midnight.
chrishelen
N/A
Yep, on later ton class minesweepers.
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wadget
Well-Known Member
That is one the problems with the big 2 strokes aswell.
What I understand modern d.electric ships do, is have multiple generator engines which they can shut down as needed so the remaining ones are still running at full speed.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Can't have been 32, deltics were made up with banks of 3 cylinders we had 2 18s and a 9
sailorman
Well-Known Member
My brother had 3 of them running on methane at a sewerage plant
chrishelen
N/A
yes you are right,ton class i think had 18s and a small 9 clyinder genny, i served on a few a while back and the old memory is a bit slow
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
There is no simple answer to this question.
Yes, No, Maybe.
Actually it depends where they are. As posted earlier inside port limits port dues are payable. Outside port limits this could be very different.
Lime Bay at one time was a popular anchorage for Tankers due to it being outside Port Limits. The back side of Gibraltar another one where there are no fees due to location. Provided the ship does not clear Customs, Immigration or have contact with port through chandler’s, agents or other services.
An other very important factor is who is paying. The answered again is often complicated. And depends on the charter party clauses, It could be the shipping company, another shipping company, charterer, shipper, or even the port. Depending upon why.
Many ships schedules are quite vague. They have time frames or windows known as “lay days” to arrive some where. The charter may start when a ship arrives. Which could be picking up the pilot, dropping the anchor or the “first rope ashore“.. If ship arrives early the ship may be on the hook for charges, It wont they will slow down. Sometimes the ship may be paid “despatch” sort of like a bonus for arriving early. If it arrives late it will pay “demurrage” a penalty. Even this is complicated and depends on why. The why changes the who.
Container ships and car carriers rarely ever anchor and usually run on tight schedules on a regular liner trade. If one of those is at anchor or drifting about. Most likely the port is paying the bill due to not having the berth available.
The reasons to drift instead of anchor are to usually to save time and money rather than fuel. It takes time to pick up an anchor. It takes time to prepare a ships engines. Time costs a lot of money.
As soon as the reason for the delay is resolved or there is a good estimate of when the slow donuter will start heading in.
Shipping is a complicated business often well above the simple sailors who work on board a lot of these decisions are made by men in suits in offices some times in the port .Often on trading floors in London or New York..
Yes, No, Maybe.
Actually it depends where they are. As posted earlier inside port limits port dues are payable. Outside port limits this could be very different.
Lime Bay at one time was a popular anchorage for Tankers due to it being outside Port Limits. The back side of Gibraltar another one where there are no fees due to location. Provided the ship does not clear Customs, Immigration or have contact with port through chandler’s, agents or other services.
An other very important factor is who is paying. The answered again is often complicated. And depends on the charter party clauses, It could be the shipping company, another shipping company, charterer, shipper, or even the port. Depending upon why.
Many ships schedules are quite vague. They have time frames or windows known as “lay days” to arrive some where. The charter may start when a ship arrives. Which could be picking up the pilot, dropping the anchor or the “first rope ashore“.. If ship arrives early the ship may be on the hook for charges, It wont they will slow down. Sometimes the ship may be paid “despatch” sort of like a bonus for arriving early. If it arrives late it will pay “demurrage” a penalty. Even this is complicated and depends on why. The why changes the who.
Container ships and car carriers rarely ever anchor and usually run on tight schedules on a regular liner trade. If one of those is at anchor or drifting about. Most likely the port is paying the bill due to not having the berth available.
The reasons to drift instead of anchor are to usually to save time and money rather than fuel. It takes time to pick up an anchor. It takes time to prepare a ships engines. Time costs a lot of money.
As soon as the reason for the delay is resolved or there is a good estimate of when the slow donuter will start heading in.
Shipping is a complicated business often well above the simple sailors who work on board a lot of these decisions are made by men in suits in offices some times in the port .Often on trading floors in London or New York..
penfold
Well-Known Member
In 4 months on a container ship, we anchored twice to wait for our slot to enter the Panama canal, twice in Gatun because of some kind of lockgate infarction, and once off Genoa because there were no berths available.
Modern slow speed diesels are much happier running at low revs for long periods than the old-style mechanically injected engines, electronically controlled fuel and cylinder oil injection mean the over-oiling occurs far less and scavenge space and economiser fires are pretty rare these days except with older or completely knackered engines.
Greenheart
Well-Known Member
Fantastic service, that. Never seen it before. Cheers!
JayBee
Well-Known Member
Ships waiting to embark a pilot or wait for a berth for some other reason can be obliged to drift rather than anchor, for the simple reason that there is no safe anchorage off the port - usually too deep or too exposed.
One such is Willemstad in Curacao and another, closer to home, is west of Shetland, for the Sullom Voe oil terminal.
One such is Willemstad in Curacao and another, closer to home, is west of Shetland, for the Sullom Voe oil terminal.
onesea
Well-Known Member
Do you know how much paper work going to anchor could create? JSA's, Work permits, tool box talks, pre-arrival checklists, pre-departure checklists, engine room check lists, changes to passage plans (they are meant to be berth to berth) and I amsure there could be more..
That's before you start any actual work you know
.I think most shipping company's have there contracts well enough stitched up now that they can make the crews work any hours they want.... Its only international hours of rest that stop them, even that can legally be bent.
Master under god and god knows how many other people all prone to changing there mind or getting it wrong at a moments notice. Often they have no comprehension of ships, "we did not send you change of instructions till this morning you would of all been sleeping!
". Just because the ship has to be on time (or early on demand), does not not mean the port will be ready for them.A standard expresion for this is "hurry up and wait"
OOhh its an old mistake being remade I know of a class of ships (about 5 years old) that still have this problem. It was cheaper to marinise locomotive engines designed run at 90% load. You try sailing your boat and keeping engine working at 90% not much more or less
...That is until some one (in an office normally) decides that you need to have ALL equipment operational, running and online. This then means ships end up with 4 generators running at 15% load and engineers wanting more load.
No one has mentioned the 3T's either, crew reasons to remain in certain locations reduced now with Internet and Satellite TV but in the past especially important. Television, Tax (outside 12' normally uk crew) and Telephone Range.
Yup sailors could be considered Lorry Drivers, Taxi Drivers, Tanker Drivers or Coach Drivers depending on the type of ship. Although to say they are simple I think detracts some what from the job they do.
Some would question the value of the men in suits, that make all the decisions about the manning, cargo, routes, equipment, safety of those simple sailors and cargo...
I know of a shipping company that only when they had to install GMDSS equipment (Late 1990's) to there vessels did they get GPS. Even then they where trying to save costs and avoid it....
nigel1
Well-Known Member
I'm on the hook in Gamrie Bay, just off Gardenstown, so far, the HM has not been out to hand me a chitty for anchoring fees.
With the price of fuel nowadays, engine hours and loads are now becoming a major issue with both owners and charterers. At one time in the oil industry, no one gave a toss if we charged about with 4 main engines at 85% load. Now its more likely, that if there is no rush to get somewhere, then its one engine on one shaft, and the idle shaft de-clutched and the shaft brake off.
Incidentally, Marine Traffic AIS website, I'm pretty sure it decides on whether a vessel is underway or anchored/moored, based on the speed of the vessel. Last week we had connected the tow to a jack up rig which was still at air draft, so we were stopped over the ground, I checked marine traffic website and it indicated we were anchored/moored, despite our AIS status being RAM
With the price of fuel nowadays, engine hours and loads are now becoming a major issue with both owners and charterers. At one time in the oil industry, no one gave a toss if we charged about with 4 main engines at 85% load. Now its more likely, that if there is no rush to get somewhere, then its one engine on one shaft, and the idle shaft de-clutched and the shaft brake off.
Incidentally, Marine Traffic AIS website, I'm pretty sure it decides on whether a vessel is underway or anchored/moored, based on the speed of the vessel. Last week we had connected the tow to a jack up rig which was still at air draft, so we were stopped over the ground, I checked marine traffic website and it indicated we were anchored/moored, despite our AIS status being RAM