Do most sailors really know how to sail?

I think I have a different view from some of the sentiments mentioned here:

"Sail trim is incredibly technical" Sure it's technical if you try to learn it from a book in a single day. But its not technical at all if you do it while you are out sailing with a happy attitude on a nice sunny day. Ease the main sheet a bit. Does the boat speed up or slow down? Do it again on a different day when the wind is blowing stronger or lighter. What is the result? Move the jib cars back a bit, or forward a bit. Does the boat speed up or slow down, depending on the wind speed? Now let's make some adjustments to the back stay. What happens in stronger or lighter winds? You don't need to be a technician. All you need is the idea that you want to become a little bit better. You'll find that the most improvement happens in the first month or two. If you stop then, that's fine. You are already a better sailor.

"Old, bagged out sails." This is just an excuse. I can tell you now that my sails are well past dead. I've repaired each of them myself dozens (yes, I said dozens) of times. They look like Frankenstein with all the stitching and patches of repair tape. But I still do very well at club racing. I even race against an identical boat with brand new high tech sails, and a full crew. (I race singlehanded). And I often beat him because he hasn't caught on to the tricky currents in our area yet. The reason why I do so well, and why I win many race series (note that I say series rather than individual races) is because I show up for every race. So I get lots of 3s and 4s and 5s, but I never score the 12 that other boats get for missing a race. So at the end of the series I get a 1st or 2nd or 3rd. A few years ago I won the distance racing trophy for the entire year, but I didn't win a single race. In fact I came dead last in many. But I showed up!

So stop thinking about getting better at sailing as something only racers do. Just start to experiment with your sail trim and keep an eye on the knot meter when you make changes. You can even do this while you are out sailing with your wife with a G&T in one hand.
And stop thinking that your old bagged out sails are holding you back. The only thing that is holding you back from winning armloads of trophies is not getting out on the course in the first place. This is a truth for all yacht clubs.
 
I agree in general, however on the specific case of the RTI (When we can assume that everyone is at least trying a bit and following their interpretation of best route etc.) there are massive differences in time between very similar boats, and of course choosing the best route is part of sailing.

I don't actually think this is necessarily a bad thing. I was merely refuting the statement that no attention to sail trim etc can get you to within 10% of your boat's optimum. It can't. If you just hoist, sheet and forget you'll be more like 25% + down.
Fine if that's what you want, but if it's a conscious decision at least be honest about how much faster your boat could go if you were trimming it properly.

TBh I think the time spreads in things like the RTIR are not just about sail trim.
There's also
boat prep (you see a few slimy bottoms)
Tidal tactics
Windshift awareness
Clean air/ getting buried
boat weight
and even crew weight

and tacking/gybing/rounding marks counts too, not just sail trim in a straight line.

A lot of us might think we are much faster than the average cruiser sailor.
A one-design race against the likes of Nick Craig puts me back in my place......
 
Fastest is not always the best way to sail. For example-

- Keeping a restricted sail plan in anticipation of an increase in wind
- Avoiding going on deck to set/reef because of risk of injury or falling overboard - is saving a few minutes worth the risk?
- Luffing to avoid heeling for the sake of those below - sleeping or cooking
- Not setting downwind sails because of effort/risk
- Running under headsail only to reduce risk of gybing
- Going slowly to wait for a tide window or daylight

And if you go out for a day sail, does it matter if you go 5 miles before turning back instead of 6?

Is sail tweaking a more valuable use of your time afloat than sitting with a glass of wine enjoying the view?
 
Fastest is not always the best way to sail.

I don't think anyone is arguing that.

But if you don't know how to trim properly you're going to spend more time motoring in both very light winds and heavier stuff upwind when you aren't making decent progress.
 
Is it fair to say that most cruising sailors don't know how to sail properly or are not bothered about doing so?
Why should we be? We are not racing.

Why not relax and enjoy the voyage?

I find the return on effort too small to continue to faf about with trimming the sails.
 
I think one of the hardest angles to sail at and trim your boat correctly is when the wind is well behind the mast. I got a reply from a friend who said the following.

A few notes in downwind sailing. Two points to consider , are we sailing so low that the sails are stalled (like a dead run) or high enough for flow over the sails. If running or very deep downwind , sailing wing on wing will be faster than the genoa hiding behind the main. A whisker pole is ideal.
Most people tend to billow out the sails instead of spreading them for maximum sail area . I see the pole way too far forward all to often. As you are doing the backstay should be eased but don't allow the mast to bend forward . Masts leaning forward is very fast but only useful on boats with very rapid adjustable shrouds which I wouldn't use on an offshore cruising boat .
The boom should be perpendicular to the wind as much as possible , outhaul out firm but not stretching the foot. Boom vang tension is more critical . Much more difficult to trim with a hollow leach that you might have if you are mast furling. Unless you have vertical battens .
When sighting from the mast looking up at the leach of the main don't allow the leach to twist too much forward . You want as much sail area utilized up top as you can .

When sailing at slightly higher angles with sail flow , place a woolie (tail tales) on the main at 40% aft of mast 3/4 up from the boom . Add one also on the leach of mainsail around the height of where a top batten would be . Adjust main to have both of these flowing , the leeward one. The windward one on the sail is useless . The leach tell tale will change depending on vang tension. I like sailing with it flowing 80% if the time or flicking around but not hanging stalled .

Genoas are the wrong sail for deep downwind sailing but we must make due with them. They are really designed to go upwind . The sail will most always be sheeted at too tight an angle .
Some people use a short whisker pole to hold the sheet further outboard from the boat but this isn't really practical . So think in terms of just sheeting from a position to get the clew as far outboard as possible .
The sail will still be too curved and flow won't stay attached the full length of the sail. So focus on the luff and first two forward feet of the sail. Keep tell tales flowing as best you can . Always remembering that a stalled sail ( leeward tell tale hanging ) will generate no lift . The inside tell tale can hang because a sailed trimmed out too far still will give lift and forward drive . An over sheeted sail will not. When I'm coaching the kids racing teams I tell them " if in doubt let it out" .
 
Always remembering that a stalled sail ( leeward tell tale hanging ) will generate no lift . The inside tell tale can hang because a sailed trimmed out too far still will give lift and forward drive . An over sheeted sail will not. When I'm coaching the kids racing teams I tell them " if in doubt let it out" .

How can you get lift from the lee of the genoa when the wind is filling the sail from behind?
 
Coming from a distant racing background, I do believe most cruisers (not using engines) only reach 50 to 60% of their potential performance. Many carry far to little canvas for the conditions - I have seen double reefed mains and small jibs when I am still sailing with full canvas and coping well. Other sailors have people onboard who dislike the boat heeling, so never push the boats potential. The ist goes on and on.

On another point even matched racing boats can produce hugely different results. The 3rd leg of the Rould the World race has just started. Look at the difference of their positions now http://clipperroundtheworld.com/race/standings. In the last race 5 boats finished within half a day, so much closer.
 
I tweak so much that even on an occasion when we were deliberatly undercanvassed with a deep third reef in the main and just a few turns of genoa out in just 15 knots of breeze in an attempt to sail slowly enough to stay in company with much smaller boats, I found I'd fettled us up to 5 to 6 knots without even meaning to do so. So yes, I'm definitely a tweaker. Having the genoa halyard, towable headsail car lines, Cunningham, traveller lines, main halyard, outhaul, vang and backstay all to hand and adjustable from the cockpit also helps me fiddle more than I might otherwise.

Whether what I do with them all means that I really know how to sail or not is an entirely different question however!
 
And stop thinking that your old bagged out sails are holding you back. The only thing that is holding you back from winning armloads of trophies is not getting out on the course in the first place.

The main thing holding me back from winning armloads of trophies is...well...why would I want armloads of trophies and where would I put them? 'spose I could put one in the grab bag as a bailer.

I sailed for 4 years with the old duff sails that came with my boat on the "bad worker blames their tools" hypothesis. Couldn't get the hook out of the leech of the main no matter what I did. The (big, 20 year old) genoa never looked too bad but the boat had lousy pointing. It's quite demoralising when you can't work out what it is you're doing wrong.

New sails last year. Complete transformation. Now when you bend the backstay, adjust the halyard tension, tweak the outhaul etc. the shape of the main changes the way my sail trim books say it should.

So I disagree with the ****ed sails don't matter assertion unless you're talking about the absolute absolute basics.

Coming from a distant racing background, I do believe most cruisers (not using engines) only reach 50 to 60% of their potential performance. .

Brilliant! I knew these westerlies could manage 14+ knots. Now to engage the 90% of my brain that it's been "scientifically proven" I don't use to make that happen.
 
Is it fair to say that most cruising sailors don't know how to sail properly or are not bothered about doing so?

I put myself in the category above. The trouble is that unless you have been taught by someone who really knows, and I mean really knows, sail trimming is difficult, complicated and a continual process.

Most cruising sailors just want the boat to sail for A to B and then to sit back with a drink. As long as the sails are not flapping around they are happy.

The trouble with really getting a boat to sail at it's optimum speed there are so many adjustments you can make and each one effects the others.

I have no idea when it comes to really sailing the boat, I set it up as best I can and relax, tweaking a few things occasionally. But then again I am a cruising sailor.

This link is really good on sail trim and covers a few basics well. It is well worth reading and helped me.

http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/troubleshooting-your-telltales-24274#6iquyvFofbSgQvZO.01

At last, someone being honest on behalf of me !

I read the books, watch the videos and then Humm and Hhaa when on board - mind you I like the name of the 'Cunningham' .
 
laika;5500224I sailed for 4 years with the old duff sails that came with my boat. Couldn't get the hook out of the leech of the main no matter what I did. The (big said:
knew[/I] these westerlies could manage 14+ knots. Now to engage the 90% of my brain that it's been "scientifically proven" I don't use to make that happen.

Glad to hear your Westerly performs better with new sails. On my Fulmar the Hood sails are from 1996 and the genoa has a terrible hook on the leech that cannot be corrected, but the main still looks good as it is fully battened. However I am going to be moving up a gear next season as I have just paid the deposit on a new furling genoa and fully battened main, both to be made in Vectran. The price is an ouch, but should give better performance all round. I doubt if I will hit 14 knots, but hope to exceed the 10.2 knots as my top speed (the log is over reading by about an estimated 15%!)
 
If I am sailing dead downwind at 7 knots I can turn 45° off the direct course and bring the speed up to 10 knots. Whether I actually gain something in VMG is dubious. What is certain is that the motion is a lot less comfortable so I go for the quiet life. If that annoys racing types, so much the better.
 
If I am sailing dead downwind at 7 knots I can turn 45° off the direct course and bring the speed up to 10 knots. Whether I actually gain something in VMG is dubious. What is certain is that the motion is a lot less comfortable so I go for the quiet life. If that annoys racing types, so much the better.

I really only cruise on yachts, though race dingies at times. Personally I loathe going dead down wind. Either you pole out the genoa or try goosewinging it. I'd rather do deep reaches and gybe a few times. At least you can out run the uncomfortable following seas, and both sails are working fairly well. A deep reach with an asymmetric on a dinghy is generally way faster than trying to go dead downwind, with the main robbing the kite of power. I've sailed the big boat with a cruising chute on it's own occasionally. It pulls really nicely in clean air. Each to his own favourite methods. ? :cool:
 
If I am sailing dead downwind at 7 knots I can turn 45° off the direct course and bring the speed up to 10 knots. Whether I actually gain something in VMG is dubious. What is certain is that the motion is a lot less comfortable so I go for the quiet life. If that annoys racing types, so much the better.

Surely that's cse maths? COS (45deg) is .707 so about the same.

The optimum is probably somewhere between.
Cos(30deg) is 0.866, so heading up 30 degrees only needs about 15% speed increase to be a winner.

The real gains are if heading up takes you into better tide, or a better place as the wind shifts.
 
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