Do most sailors really know how to sail?

Nostrodamus

Nostrodamus

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Is it fair to say that most cruising sailors don't know how to sail properly or are not bothered about doing so?

I put myself in the category above. The trouble is that unless you have been taught by someone who really knows, and I mean really knows, sail trimming is difficult, complicated and a continual process.

Most cruising sailors just want the boat to sail for A to B and then to sit back with a drink. As long as the sails are not flapping around they are happy.

The trouble with really getting a boat to sail at it's optimum speed there are so many adjustments you can make and each one effects the others.

I have no idea when it comes to really sailing the boat, I set it up as best I can and relax, tweaking a few things occasionally. But then again I am a cruising sailor.

This link is really good on sail trim and covers a few basics well. It is well worth reading and helped me.

http://www.pbo.co.uk/seamanship/troubleshooting-your-telltales-24274#6iquyvFofbSgQvZO.01
 
It's a compromise and obeys the law of diminishing returns. With say an average boat speed of say 5Knts if you can only improve that speed by 1 to 5 % is it worth the continued hassle let alone the expense of the gear and sails to allow you to tweek. Most sailors will get their boat sailing to within 10% of optimum I would have thought.
 
petehb said:
It's a compromise and obeys the law of diminishing returns. With say an average boat speed of say 5Knts if you can only improve that speed by 1 to 5 % is it worth the continued hassle let alone the expense of the gear and sails to allow you to tweek. Most sailors will get their boat sailing to within 10% of optimum I would have thought.
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+1
Unless I'm in a fastidious frame of mind and have nothing better to do I set my sails and virtually leave them - unless conditions change. I keep an eye on the tell-tales, and glance occasionally at the Knot-ometer, but generally try to relax and enjoy the sailing - whatever the wind and sea permits.

I have raced, many years ago quite seriously (??:rolleyes: ) but hadn't a clue about all the techniques and equipment of recent times.

I'm happy to cruise comfortably - or just hang-on in a blow. Always of course with the reefing mantra in mind.
 
I bought myself the RYA Sail Trim Handbook for Cruisers. I did pay more attention to things, and have improved but came to the conclusion that I really need to take the book out with me!
 
It breaks my heart to see cruising boats soldiering along with flappy leeches, utterly shagged out genoas badly trimmed. Please get off your arse and trim the sheets!
 
petehb said:
Most sailors will get their boat sailing to within 10% of optimum I would have thought.
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Not even close I would suggest.

A quick look at the RTI results from this year in the ISC (cruising) class show the winner finished with a corrected (and therefore in theory allowing for boat design) time of 7 hours and 13 minutes.

10% of 7 hours and 13 minutes is 43 minutes.

So to be within 10% of the best on that day you would have to finish with a corrected time of less than 7 hours and 56 minutes.

There were 701 finishers in the ISC classes.
66 of them finished with a corrected time of less than 7 hours and 56 minutes. So less than 10% of entrants were within 10% of the winner.

The ratio is slightly better in the IRC (racing) classes.
86 out of 464 finished within 10% of the winner on corrected time, so 18% of the finishers were within 10% of the winner. And I've just noticed that we were 85th, with a time almost exactly 10% worse than the winner!

I'm aware that the RTI is not a truly fair test because of the tide favouring the small boats, but taking one ISC class at random (where the tide can be assumed to be equal in relation to speed for all competitors) Only 11 out of 50 were within 10%.
 
flaming said:
Not even close I would suggest.

A quick look at the RTI results from this year in the ISC (cruising) class show the winner finished with a corrected (and therefore in theory allowing for boat design) time of 7 hours and 13 minutes.

10% of 7 hours and 13 minutes is 43 minutes.

So to be within 10% of the best on that day you would have to finish with a corrected time of less than 7 hours and 56 minutes.

There were 701 finishers in the ISC classes.
66 of them finished with a corrected time of less than 7 hours and 56 minutes. So less than 10% of entrants were within 10% of the winner.

The ratio is slightly better in the IRC (racing) classes.
86 out of 464 finished within 10% of the winner on corrected time, so 18% of the finishers were within 10% of the winner. And I've just noticed that we were 85th, with a time almost exactly 10% worse than the winner!

I'm aware that the RTI is not a truly fair test because of the tide favouring the small boats, but taking one ISC class at random (where the tide can be assumed to be equal in relation to speed for all competitors) Only 11 out of 50 were within 10%.
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I accept all you are saying but, many of those with results outside the 10% of the winners time may well be sailing their boat to within 10% or better of it's potential. Presumably the guy who won is fairly keen and will have good sails and doesn't carry all the comfort stuff a cruiser who turns out for the RTI once a year probably has.

I have played at racing in a local regatta and can't be bothered emptying all the tanks and removing the wine/food or anything I'm not going to use that day, it doesn't mean I let the sails flap and don't try to do a good job with what I have when I'm out there though.
 
aquaplane said:
I accept all you are saying but, many of those with results outside the 10% of the winners time may well be sailing their boat to within 10% or better of it's potential. Presumably the guy who won is fairly keen and will have good sails and doesn't carry all the comfort stuff a cruiser who turns out for the RTI once a year probably has.
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In theory the ISC classes are just cruisers out for a once a year race, so they should be of roughly similar boat preparation standard. The keen racers, the ones with spangly sails etc, should be in IRC, where we also see the majority of the fleet outside of the 10% bubble.

And even in the OD classes, it looks like an average of about half of the fleet are outside of 10%. Smaller sample sets for sure, but the difference between good sailors and decent sailors is bigger than you might expect.

In any case the time difference is pretty shocking across the fleet. the median boat - the one that finished in 350th, finished in 8 hours and 56 minutes corrected. Which is almost 25% slower.
 
Centaur 2 does not have any wind detecting systems on it at all - no windex, no pennant, no tell tales.

I am also not sure that many of my fellow twin keelr sailors really know how to make them go. You cannot let them heel to much otherwise that windward keel gets too close to the surface and starts to cavitate in a most unpleasant way.

The twin keelers need to be sailed upright like a dinghy. That either means reducing sail or stuffing it into the wind during the gusts

I was watching my son at the helm and he soon worked out what shee needed.

The blokes with long deep keels are rather lazy and let the physics do the helming - allowing the boat to heel in the gusts and shed wind by presenting less area to the wind and allowing the keel to keep the boat balanced.

Roger and Jon said I adjust the sails too much. The inner racing man wanting to escape.

D
 
I once suggested to a fellow club member that he could ease the topping lift as the main was all flappy. He said that he couldn't be bothered with all that constant tweaking, and anyway, that was how the previous owner had set it up. A bit later I heard him say that he always used the engine to tack because the boat wouldn't go through the wind.
On the other hand I sometimes crew on a large gaff ketch. The owner is a keen racer and with seven sails to tweak, you seldom get a sit down.
 
Nostrodamus said:
Is it fair to say that most cruising sailors don't know how to sail properly or are not bothered about doing so?
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Got to agree. If you get any new crew on your boat for a race its immediately obvious that most do not understand sail trim and their inclination to sit there and watch the other competitors rather than constantly trim shows the "not bothered" bit.

But then if you can get 80% of the performance just by hoiking the sails up the mast and sheeting in, why do cruising sailors need to bother anyway. Lets face it, the last thing cruising boats are is fast. When similar sized racing monos can achieve 15 to 20kn, we have lumbering cruising boats struggling to get to 7 kn.

Takes all sorts
 
Nostrodamus said:
Most cruising sailors just want the boat to sail for A to B and then to sit back with a drink. As long as the sails are not flapping around they are happy.

The trouble with really getting a boat to sail at it's optimum speed there are so many adjustments you can make and each one effects the others.

I have no idea when it comes to really sailing the boat, I set it up as best I can and relax, tweaking a few things occasionally. But then again I am a cruising sailor.
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Those are the important points. Some people sail for the challenge and enjoyment of getting the boat to perform, others sail because they want to get somewhere on their boat. some have a position in between, and even the same person can have different objectives at different times.

There is nothing inherently "better" about being at either end of the continuum so those that "hate" seeing others sailing "badly" by not trimming and tweaking as just as wrong as those who "hate" the thought of having to continually adjust sails when they would rather sit back and let the boat get on with it.
 
"Centaur 2 does not have any wind detecting systems on it at all"

Smart move, ours has five, a windex & Raymarine electronic-jobby at the masthead (the most useless), telltales on both headsails, telltales on the mainstays (they're not bad) plus a blade on the windvane steering, oh and an ensign you can look at too; they all tell me the wind's blowing in different direction!

We used to have some tell tales on the mainsail's leech too, but wind/friction/UV eventually put paid to those and no loss either as they refused to all fly horizontally at the same time, ever; given that our setting/trimming of the sails was always perfectly in all situations, they were obviously faulty ones.
 
DanTribe said:
I once suggested to a fellow club member that he could ease the topping lift as the main was all flappy. He said that he couldn't be bothered with all that constant tweaking, and anyway, that was how the previous owner had set it up. A bit later I heard him say that he always used the engine to tack because the boat wouldn't go through the wind.
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I spent some time a few weekends ago watching a Bavaria on the Clyde sailing, or trying to sail, with the main sheeted fully in and the genoa fully out on all points of sail. Neither running nor reaching seemed to be working very well for them, you'll be surprised to hear.
 
flaming said:
In theory the ISC classes are just cruisers out for a once a year race, so they should be of roughly similar boat preparation standard. The keen racers, the ones with spangly sails etc, should be in IRC, where we also see the majority of the fleet outside of the 10% bubble.

And even in the OD classes, it looks like an average of about half of the fleet are outside of 10%. Smaller sample sets for sure, but the difference between good sailors and decent sailors is bigger than you might expect.

In any case the time difference is pretty shocking across the fleet. the median boat - the one that finished in 350th, finished in 8 hours and 56 minutes corrected. Which is almost 25% slower.
Click to expand...

You are rather assuming that sail trim is the only factor at play. What about clean air, tides, route taken, antifoul, weight, and even the competitiveness of the skipper. I don't know what the true figure would be, and you may be right that it is less but I think the main point is that most people are simply not racing. Cruisers are mostly trying to get there in a reasonable time while enjoying the ride. For some effeciency rings enjoyment, for others it is a G&T and looking at birds (of whatever type) through binocs.

P.S. I would like to learn to sail better just for the sake of the knowledge but I am not competitive.
 
Technically if you can get on a boat, hoist the sails and get it moving then you know how to sail. However with all things there is doing something, there's doing something well and then there's Ben Ainsley.

I'm always amazed at the number of mediocre sailors who are quick to pass judgement on someone else's skills or methods and it almost always stems from lacking the experience to realise just what other people are trying to get out of their day on the water.
 
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