Do I need a liferaft?

Talulah said:
Yes I'm reading it but I don't think 'what a load of idiots'.
You can substitute the word 'liferaft' for a whole bunch of other items e.g. defibrillator and go through exactly the same arguments yet peoples position will change.

To be controversial I think a number of people are conditioned into their believes without actually thinking it through for themselves. There are balances to be had and like religion any sense of logic gets thrown out and damn the people who challenge the faith.
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Yes, its a good thing Richard Dawkins is not interested in liferafts (at least I don't think so) as the debate would take on a completely different flavour!
 
PaulGooch said:
Well, it's certainly no dafter than some of the posts in this thread :D
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I had to do a risk assessment recently to take a group of kids out on Saturday selling poppies for the RBL. That risk assessment had to include the risk of someone stabbing themselves with a pin, and an appropriate mitigating action. I jest not.

On the other hand, I have been known to run while carrying scissors before now...
 
What's the relevance?

Wiggo said:
I had to do a risk assessment recently to take a group of kids out on Saturday selling poppies for the RBL. That risk assessment had to include the risk of someone stabbing themselves with a pin, and an appropriate mitigating action. I jest not.

On the other hand, I have been known to run while carrying scissors before now...
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"Well, it's certainly no dafter than some of the posts in this thread "

Really?
 
Tranona said:
It really is difficult to deal with "arguments" that are so randomly put together and do not respond to points others are making, but simply regurgitate "conventional" thinking.

Please try and be objective and don't bring it the pulling at hearts strings arguments.

I have read every single MAIB report on yachts foundering and I do not see the things you seem to. Firstly the reports make it clear whether the yacht is coded or not if it is relevant. However, you generally do not need this because each incident is described in enough detail to know what sortt of yacht it is and how it is equipped. The fact remains that very few of the incidents involve yachts out on charter or being used commercially.

Not sure about why you are making a comment about the glue failure. That is a fact. I was only using it to show how difficult it is even for a firm like RFD to make a robust reliable product when there is so little "real" testing. Definitely would not a be a sensible reason for not buying one. You obviously have not read the report or you would know that they issued a service bulletin advising a more rigorous test.

As I have tried ad nauseum (and clearly failed with some) to suggest that reports should be read with a view to learning the practical lessons they contain. In this case they paint a very clear picture of circumstances in which liferafts are, or could be deployed. It becomes equally clear that the vast majority of leisure sailors will never get anywher near those situations - and the truth of that is in the figures - tiny numbers compared with the population. It is also clear, both from a theoretical point of view that yachtsmen adopt appropriate strategies to avoid those situations - having sound boats, keeping clear of other ships and avoiding extreme weather.

That does not mean these extreme events will not occur, and it is quite reasonable that some should take the view that even that small risk should be allowed for. However, it is also very clear from the reports that liferafts do not always (for whatever reason) perform correctly.

Therefore from my perspective, I think avoidance is the best strategy, but I recognise that is not everybody's view, and if some feel happier having a liferaft that's fine - just don't get all self righteous about it or accuse others who have a different view of all the horrible things they have been accused of here.


BTW, please stop using the word "rubbish" - that is a sure sign of a person with entrenched views they can't explain rationally.
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Quote -

"You'll only NEED it if you are sinking or on fire with no-one else near enough to help. But you may well REALLY NEED it then! Like all this stuff, it a matter of risk assessment. The likelyhood of needing it is extremely low, but the consequence of not having one IF you do need it could be catastrophic."

Sums the argument up really!

"you may well REALLY NEED it then!
"but the consequence of not having one IF you do need it could be catastrophic."

BTW, not my words, but yet another with entrenched views!
Thank you Searush for being succinct!
 
alant said:
Quote -

"You'll only NEED it if you are sinking or on fire with no-one else near enough to help. But you may well REALLY NEED it then! Like all this stuff, it a matter of risk assessment. The likelyhood of needing it is extremely low, but the consequence of not having one IF you do need it could be catastrophic."

Sums the argument up really!

"you may well REALLY NEED it then!
"but the consequence of not having one IF you do need it could be catastrophic."

BTW, not my words, but yet another with entrenched views!
Thank you Searush for being succinct!
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Not sure what point you are trying to make. They are self evidently valid comments.

The question is always, for a particular user, do I need one. The "entrenched view" answer is yes - silly not to, immoral, what would others say, they are cheap and all the other pat statements.

The more sensible view is to (if you want to make the effort) research the evidence, relate it to your situation and form your own view. That way you will also find outthat that when people REALLY NEEDED it, the results were not very good, although on balance probably better than not having it. You might therefore concentrate your efforts on avoiding the need - clearly relatively easy as so few people find the need.

Going through this process means that all the entrenched views become irrelevant and you make your decision based on your own assessment. Unless of course you have to buy one for regulatory reasons!
 
Tranona said:
Going through this process means that all the entrenched views become irrelevant and you make your decision based on your own assessment. Unless of course you have to buy one for regulatory reasons!
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Right- but most boaters are not Mr Spock, so they behave as humans and sometimes do irrational things. Some might even do something as silly as buying a lottery ticket. Mind you, perhaps the odds of winning are about the same a using a l/raft ;)
 
Let's expand the "Do I need a liferaft?"
Do I need an anchor?
Do I need a second anchor?
Do I need a big anchor?
Do I need an even bigger anchor?
Do I need a lifejacket?
Do I need an auto lifejacket?
Do I need a Hydrastic lifejacket?
Do I need a big life jacket?

The answer is maybe,maybe not but to get back on theme...
Do I need an inshore liferaft?
Do I need a coastal liferaft?
Do I need an offshore liferaft.
Which pack should the liferaft contain?
Do I need to keep it serviced?
Do I need a self righting liferaft?
Do I need an insulated floor?

So having included liferafts, lifejackets, anchors in one thread I can now sit back.
Sorry forgot to include qualifications...
Do I need a qualification?
Do I need a certificate...

Hang on....
Do I need an anchor ball?
Do I need a motoring cone?

Even more...
Do I need flares?
Do I need to go sailing?
Do I need to see a doctor? (Probably)
 
Talulah said:
Let's expand the "Do I need a liferaft?"
Do I need an anchor?
Do I need a second anchor?
Do I need a big anchor?
Do I need an even bigger anchor?
Do I need a lifejacket?
Do I need an auto lifejacket?
Do I need a Hydrastic lifejacket?
Do I need a big life jacket?

The answer is maybe,maybe not but to get back on theme...
Do I need an inshore liferaft?
Do I need a coastal liferaft?
Do I need an offshore liferaft.
Which pack should the liferaft contain?
Do I need to keep it serviced?
Do I need a self righting liferaft?
Do I need an insulated floor?

So having included liferafts, lifejackets, anchors in one thread I can now sit back.
Sorry forgot to include qualifications...
Do I need a qualification?
Do I need a certificate...

Hang on....
Do I need an anchor ball?
Do I need a motoring cone?

Even more...
Do I need flares?
Do I need to go sailing?
Do I need to see a doctor? (Probably)
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At this point you need to deploy your l/raft as all this equipment means you are sinking .
 
Thepipdoc said:
At first site the title of this thread might seem like a silly question but I'll ask it anyway!
(I say its a silly qustion but I think I know the answer even before I ask it!)

I don't currently have a life raft on board my new (to Me) Sealine F33 and and whilst most of our trips are costal, we do intend to make several trips to the channel islands and France in 2011.
The question is should I have a liferaft aboard?
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So do I need one then??!!
 
If I owned a Subaru Impreza WRX or Mitsubishi whatever but only ever drove them on the road I wouldn't consider wearing a crash helmet, who would? If I had an accident no one would say "should have been wearing a crash helmet'. All reasonable precautions for the cars intended usage had been taken i.e. Seatbelts… In the circumstances of it's usage no one wears a crash helmet.

On the other hand I were of for a rally, of course I would wear a crash helmet. why? Because the intended usage of the car has changed and the possibility of the crash helmet coming into play has dramatically increased.

Therefore I conclude….

Out for a daily sail with all reasonable precautions taken (inflated dinghy on board = seat belt) I wouldn't consider a life raft.
Long distance or night sailing without another boat in company or have the tendency not to take note of what the weather has in store... I'd seriously consider one.
 
michaelchapman said:
But most people do not have a CO detectors and smoke detectors, a fire blanket in the kitchen and a fire extinguisher in each room of the house.

Most boats don't catch fire or sink either.
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Not sure I understand your comment Michael. My point is either a lift raft or a tender is a sort of insurance against loss of life, however unlikely it may be needed, fires and sinkings do happen away from nearby help. Few folk would leave their home uninsured, and few would risk same with their families lives should something go badly wrong in a motor cruiser. No need for piles of other safety gear.

PFD - means of surviving 20-45 mins in water
Tender or life raft - means of surviving more than 20-45 mins
Comms (VHF, flares, plb or epirb, dry phone) - means of alerting rescue need
 
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