Do I need a liferaft?

[Tranona]

I am afraid there is not any evidence that this is so. There are no examples of coded charter boats except for Creightons Naturally and Megawatt (neither of which are good examples of the efficacy of liferafts) deploying a liferaft and only one example of a coded charter yacht foundering while on charter - and the fact that it was a charter yacht was largely irrelevant. There is no higher risk of MCA coded vessels foundering ie near to zero than any other yacht.

Once again the causes of foundering to the point of needing a liferaft are nothing to do with where the boat is being used, how much use it gets, who is using it - or all the other unsupported suggestions. Only 3 underlying causes - extreme conditions, collision and structural failure. And even when you get down to this level of analysis you find very little commonality in the recorded incidents.

The bottom line is that we have collectively convinced ourselves that it is "good thing" (moral responsibility??? has just been cited) to buy products that we will (almost) never need, will probably not do their intended job anyway - and then worst of all get castigated if we question the wisdom of this course of action.

By all means buy one - I have because I needed it to code my boat - but don't get all superior and sanctimonious about it as if you are somehow morally superior to those who look at the evidence and come to a different conclusion.

 

[BrendanS]

Though the same issues apply to flying. Why would you need a parachute (civvie small aircraft, not miltary, nor large passenger) extreme conditions, collision and structural failure

They've saved a few lives, but not applicable in all circumstances, though when I flew hang gliders we had nothing except a few experimental designs to bring down the entire hang glider, and later those also saved a few lives.

Never needed for the majority, but they worked for a few.

 

[alant]

There was a tv program, a while back, that tried to prove that there were more injuries created by wearing seatbelts than the seatbelts stopped. I think they succeeded.

Funny thing, playing with figures.

The people who can give a correct answer to the OP's question, Will be those with the most experience of needing to use a liferaft for real.

But I would not want to be on a boat with any of those people, never mind take advice about boating safety from them.

As has been said before, there is not enough data to to make a statistical decision so it has to be subjective.

There is no right answer until after the event.

But it is always nice to see what other peoples opinions are.

Please note I am not an expert, if I said I was, I would expect you to ignore most of what I say.

OK, ignored!

 

[Watson47]

.... purely for information. Download the full report .... The safe & orderly abandonment of ship to the liferafts makes interesting reading, as does the failure of one liferaft and subsequent corrrective action by the manufacturer ...

http://www.mcib.ie/reports/?thisid=1950

 

[alant]

Could you survive?

I am afraid there is not any evidence that this is so. There are no examples of coded charter boats except for Creightons Naturally and Megawatt (neither of which are good examples of the efficacy of liferafts) deploying a liferaft and only one example of a coded charter yacht foundering while on charter - and the fact that it was a charter yacht was largely irrelevant. There is no higher risk of MCA coded vessels foundering ie near to zero than any other yacht.

Once again the causes of foundering to the point of needing a liferaft are nothing to do with where the boat is being used, how much use it gets, who is using it - or all the other unsupported suggestions. Only 3 underlying causes - extreme conditions, collision and structural failure. And even when you get down to this level of analysis you find very little commonality in the recorded incidents.

The bottom line is that we have collectively convinced ourselves that it is "good thing" (moral responsibility??? has just been cited) to buy products that we will (almost) never need, will probably not do their intended job anyway - and then worst of all get castigated if we question the wisdom of this course of action.

By all means buy one - I have because I needed it to code my boat - but don't get all superior and sanctimonious about it as if you are somehow morally superior to those who look at the evidence and come to a different conclusion.

1) Did I state that coded vessels were more likely to flounder than any other yacht?
No.
2) Did I state floundering as the 'only' emergency requiring a Liferaft?
No.
3) Do accidents occur in sailing vessels, where people have died?
Yes.
4) Was the cause foundering?
Yes.
Some examples -

Pamir, 1952, 80 dead - floundered.
Albatross, 1961, 6 dead - hit by squall, floundered off Cuba in minutes.
Marques, 1984, 19 dead, floundered & sank in 1 minute.
Pride of Baltimore, 1986, 4 dead, capsized.
Maria Asumpta, 1995, 3 dead, hit rocks off Cornwall.
Concordia, 2010, floundered off Brazil, no deaths 64 survivors after taking to liferafts!
Moquini, 2006, all aboard lost, keel fell off.
TS Royalist, 2009, grounded near Chapmans Pool, no casualties.

Not all your averages yachts, but please don't tell me accidents dont happen

One much closer to home
Ouzu, 2009, 3 dead, wearing LJ's. Would a liferaft have saved them?

Read the MAIB report -
"2.9.7 Survival times
The full circumstances that led to the crew of Ouzo being found in the sea will never be known.
Once in the water, a number of factors affect a person’s likely survival time. These include:
o the sea temperature and wave conditions;
o the provision of shelter from the elements using floating wreckage, the boat itself or a liferaft;
o the provision of flotation aids like lifejackets and lifebuoys;
o the amount of insulation provided by clothing; and
o the person’s physical fitness and build.
In the early morning of 21 August, the sea temperature was about 18°C and the sea conditions were moderate caused by a south-westerly wind of about force 5.
Once in the sea, and with no ready means of gaining shelter, each crewman’s survivability was then dependent on their physical build and the protective equipment they were wearing.
All three men were physically fit and of moderate build, and they were wearing good quality yachting clothing which gave them good protection. These factors increased their likely survival times. Each person was also found wearing an inflated lifejacket, one of which had inflated automatically while the other two had been manually inflated.
The MAIB contracted a renowned expert on sea survival to look into the circumstances of the accident and report on the survivability of the three crewmen. See Annex 5 for extracts of his report.
His report concludes that James Meaby probably survived the initial incident and remained alive, floating in a survival mode, for a period in the region of at least 12 hours. It continues that it was not possible to deduce how long Rupert Saunders or Jason Downer could have survived after initially entering the water. Importantly, however, the expert concludes that they would have had little beneficial support from their lifejackets because they were both poorly fitted. Despite this, it is possible they would still have been capable of surviving at least 3 hours."

So, Searush. Toady, et al, which of us is talking b.o.l.l.o.c.k.s?

PS thanks to Watson47, for pointing out yet another incident, where liferafts saved lives.
Not forgetting Creightons Naturally & Megawatt of course.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Ouzu, 2009, 3 dead, wearing LJ's. Would a liferaft have saved them?

All went in the water alive and lived for up to 12 hours or so. An EPIRB, a waterproof handheld VHF or a waterproof mobile phone would also have saved them. A decent lookout would also have saved them. Their dinghy would also have saved them. Depending on what happened, having their washboards in would also have saved them.

The best example of a situation where a LR could save leisure sailors you can think of is the Ouzo. Doesn't that fact make you wonder if the benefits of LRs are overstated?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

So, Searush. Toady, et al, which of us is talking b.o.l.l.o.c.k.s?

It's you. It usually is.

 

[alant]

All went in the water alive and lived for up to 12 hours or so. An EPIRB, a waterproof handheld VHF or a waterproof mobile phone would also have saved them. A decent lookout would also have saved them. Their dinghy would also have saved them. Depending on what happened, having their washboards in would also have saved them.

The best example of a situation where a LR could save leisure sailors you can think of is the Ouzo. Doesn't that fact make you wonder if the benefits of LRs are overstated?

But, you miss the point.

Forget about your 'theories' that "An EPIRB, a waterproof handheld VHF or a waterproof mobile phone would also have saved them. A decent lookout would also have saved them. Their dinghy would also have saved them. Depending on what happened, having their washboards in would also have saved them."

That's not what MAIB said!

Within sight of land, in busy populated warm (18deg C) waters, not somewhere uninhabited, THEY DID DIE.

Nothing, sadly will ever change that FACT!

Would they have survived if in a raft - probably according to MAIB sea survival expert!

 

[alant]

It's you. It usually is.

Perhaps its because you make a habit of it & are well practised in the art!

 

[Wiggo]

I did a quick Google, but can't find it, but if memory serves wasn't there an Irish crew that abandoned to a liferaft in the Solent a couple of years or three ago? ISTR they were in the raft for about 12 hours before they were spotted, which given the time of year put them well beyond survivability in the water with life jackets...

Having done my sea survival course, I am under no illusions as to the desirability of entering a liferaft in anything other than the most desperate circumstances, but at least I know there's one there if I need it.

I really only consider two scenarios as likely: striking a submerged object and ripping out the shafts/p-brackets/rudders causing massive flooding, and fire. In the first, depending on the location and conditions, I have the option of deploying the tender, the raft or both. In the event of fire, I doubt there would be time to crane the tender in, so the raft is the only option unless another boat is in attendance.

 

[alant]

Previous Similar Accidents

I am afraid there is not any evidence that this is so. There are no examples of coded charter boats except for Creightons Naturally and Megawatt (neither of which are good examples of the efficacy of liferafts) deploying a liferaft and only one example of a coded charter yacht foundering while on charter - and the fact that it was a charter yacht was largely irrelevant. There is no higher risk of MCA coded vessels foundering ie near to zero than any other yacht.

Once again the causes of foundering to the point of needing a liferaft are nothing to do with where the boat is being used, how much use it gets, who is using it - or all the other unsupported suggestions. Only 3 underlying causes - extreme conditions, collision and structural failure. And even when you get down to this level of analysis you find very little commonality in the recorded incidents.

The bottom line is that we have collectively convinced ourselves that it is "good thing" (moral responsibility??? has just been cited) to buy products that we will (almost) never need, will probably not do their intended job anyway - and then worst of all get castigated if we question the wisdom of this course of action.

By all means buy one - I have because I needed it to code my boat - but don't get all superior and sanctimonious about it as if you are somehow morally superior to those who look at the evidence and come to a different conclusion.

Extract from MAIB report into Ouzu Accident -

"2.14 PREVIOUS SIMILAR ACCIDENTS
In the course of the investigation, the MAIB’s accident database was searched for relevant similar cases. In the last 10 years, there had been 87 hazardous incidents between yachts and merchant vessels in open sea conditions, and 14 collisions"

These are not Mid-Atlantic situations.

Still think you don't need a liferaft?

PS
Ouzu did NOT have one aboard!

 

[Tranona]

PS thanks to Watson47, for pointing out yet another incident, where liferafts saved lives.
Not forgetting Creightons Naturally & Megawatt of course.

No, you made a comment to the affect that the requirement for liferafts on coded boats was a consequence of superior knowledge or experience of the people making that decision. I was merely pointing out that there was no evidence to support that because all the information is in the public domain and none of this shows that in small leisure boats, those chartered out (and therefore coded) are at any different risk than those that are not.

There are all sorts of reasons why liferafts are compulsory, as much to do with society's attitude to allocating responsibility, other than to deal with a "real" risk.

Creightons Naturally and Megawatt are not good examples in the effective use of liferafts. We have already noted that in the former there was probably no need to abandon ship (although one can understand the reasons) and the liferaft deployment was problematiuc. In the latter, the liferaft simply failed to do its job and the crew were fortunate in that they were sailing in company with a very substantial yacht that had a large tender capable of performing a rescue.

You are, of course right about the number of incidents involving Sail Training vessels and this is a real cause for concern. However the issues related to those founderings are, like fishing boats, very different from those facing yachts. There are, of course some commonalities and lessons to be learned. For example many developments in safety equipment come from experiene in these fields as it is there that the risks are played out much more frequently. Finding degradation of glue on the Asgard raft would be a good example. It was 13 years old, had been properly maintained and tested, but still failed. If it had not been used in anger, the potential failure would probably never have come to light.

 

[PaulGooch]

It's an interesting thought. The chances of needing a liferaft are nigh on Nill. The chances of a life raft saving your life are less than even that (It would need a sinking where you dinghy was of no use for a start, I doubt a large percentage of sinkings occur in seas a dinghy can't handle.) In contrast the 30 odd car journeys that might be involved in a lifetimes liferaft ownership have a very real risk of killing you.

I can't put a figure on it myself but I'd love it if someone else did.

The more I think about it the more I think it's not just possible, but likely, that on average it's safer not to have a liferaft, purely due to the extra road usage that would be involved in owning/supplying liferafts.

Why not answer my questions then ?

How will having a liferaft endanger my life ?

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Why not answer my questions then ?

Lack of data. We need to know the chances of dying on x car rides to buy/maintain the LR, verses the chances of dying due to lack of a life raft over a lifetime of sailing.

The first figures fairly easy, but death due solely to lack of LR is so rare it's hard to find numbers.

 

[Searush]

(snip)

I really only consider two scenarios as likely: striking a submerged object and ripping out the shafts/p-brackets/rudders causing massive flooding, and fire. In the first, depending on the location and conditions, I have the option of deploying the tender, the raft or both. In the event of fire, I doubt there would be time to crane the tender in, so the raft is the only option unless another boat is in attendance.

In amongst the noise of the other posters, you have raised an interesting new issue;

A MoBo collision or striking a submerged/ awash object is LIKELY to be catastrophic because of the speed involved & the unprotected nature of most hulls & props/ shafts. Given the number of containers washed off ships, this could become quite a risk.

Now I know that wooden boats are at risk of springing planks/ broken ribs etc from collisions with whales/ containers etc, but I have over the years bounced off uncharted sunken wrecks, & various rocks (often due to sneaking a bit too close inshore to avoid currents or when anchoring) & not suffered any significant damage.

This is the advantage of having two cast iron keels firmly attached to the hull of my boat. Any one of these minor knocks (to me) would have at least crippled a MoBo by damaging the props and may have made a serious breach in the hull. So I can see that a MoBo'er might be more likely to need a L/R.

 

[PaulGooch]

In amongst the noise of the other posters, you have raised an interesting new issue;

A MoBo collision or striking a submerged/ awash object is LIKELY to be catastrophic because of the speed involved & the unprotected nature of most hulls & props/ shafts. Given the number of containers washed off ships, this could become quite a risk.

Now I know that wooden boats are at risk of springing planks/ broken ribs etc from collisions with whales/ containers etc, but I have over the years bounced off uncharted sunken wrecks, & various rocks (often due to sneaking a bit too close inshore to avoid currents or when anchoring) & not suffered any significant damage.

This is the advantage of having two cast iron keels firmly attached to the hull of my boat. Any one of these minor knocks (to me) would have at least crippled a MoBo by damaging the props and may have made a serious breach in the hull. So I can see that a MoBo'er might be more likely to need a L/R.

My prop and rudder are also protected, i have a skeg and prop protector.

 

[PaulGooch]

Lack of data. We need to know the chances of dying on x car rides to buy/maintain the LR, verses the chances of dying due to lack of a life raft over a lifetime of sailing.

The first figures fairly easy, but death due solely to lack of LR is so rare it's hard to find numbers.

Rubbish.

 

[Tranona]

A MoBo collision or striking a submerged/ awash object is LIKELY to be catastrophic because of the speed involved & the unprotected nature of most hulls & props/ shafts. Given the number of containers washed off ships, this could become quite a risk.

Again, as with fire, there is little evidence that this occurs. It is the sort of thing one might IMAGINE happening - but rarely does. It is the same with hitting floating debris - the risk is there in some places but the number of recorded incidents is low. Can't lay my hands on it right now, but there was a recent article on the subject in one of the mags, and even I as a sceptic was surprised at how few there were and how long the time periods were between them.

The biggest danger to exposed props and rudders on high speed craft is rope/wire/nets/plastic bags. in extreme cases this can do tremendous damage, particularly if both props pick it up. Despite that it is rare for it to result in foundering - just scary and expensive. Also says something about the inherent robustness of the structures.

 

[Tranona]

Rubbish.

It is only rubbish because the comparison is invalid. The risks of being killed in a car are general and unconnected with the purpose of the journey. But the general comparison of the number of deaths per unit of activity (however you define it) of using the roads in a car are far higher than the number of deaths from a similar unit of activity in leisure sailing.

And for Toad's argument the number of deaths that could have been prevented if a liferaft had been used is so tiny that it defies any analysis or comparison.

 

[PaulGooch]

It is only rubbish because the comparison is invalid. The risks of being killed in a car are general and unconnected with the purpose of the journey. But the general comparison of the number of deaths per unit of activity (however you define it) of using the roads in a car are far higher than the number of deaths from a similar unit of activity in leisure sailing.

And for Toad's argument the number of deaths that could have been prevented if a liferaft had been used is so tiny that it defies any analysis or comparison.

My question was, "How will having a liferaft endanger my life" ?