MagicalArmchair
Well-Known Member
You could always use http://www.boatbatteryapp.co.uk/ to plan your usage (although I would say that, I wrote it) - its a bit broad brush if I'm frank, but it gives an idea.
Do I need a generator (Honda 1kw), on a UK circumnavigation
- Thread starter Robert Wilson
- Start date
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Yes I'll be taking paper charts ( a mix of Imray and Admiralty). I wanted to use the laptop as "confirmation" of my chart-plotting and the plotter and/or laptop to be able to have an up-to-the-minute position on an electronic screen. Mainly because it's the first time I've done a trip of this kind, s/h, where I may well be out of site of land, in fog
, dodgy coast-lines etc. And also for fun and a challenge to the "leetle grey cells".I'll have a a handheld Garmin GPS and also a remote mic VHF/DCS radio both of which should give me constant accurate (+/- 10 metres) Lat/Long positioning.
This may all seem "over the top", but as a first-time s/h adventurer of this extent I want a belt-and-braces facility.
Of course, as the trip progresses I may well (hopefully) need to reduce the overall electronicry!
I don't have radar either.
MichaelPowell
New Member
About 35 years ago we sailed 300 miles around the Inner Hebrides, probably your most isolated part of the route. We had very little apart from a torch, a few lanterns and a radio receiver to pick up the BBC shipping forecast, all running on dry cells. It worked out fine. Engine starting was the only essential.
But today .... we sometimes shudder at the thought of a single engine off a rocky shoreline, with no VHF or cellphone. And if our one-year old had needed a doctor .... uuugh!! We had a dinghy and outboard always ready, and lots of buoyancy aids, flares, and common sense; so it was a great holiday.
Now that we have mobile phones, there is no excuse to not have them. Either buy a high powered wall mounted one with a high gain antenna, or at least buy three or four £10 non-smart phones on all the different networks so you can use the one with signal. When I'm forest walking I have one in each pocket in case I fall in a ditch!! It pays to have a non-smart phone because they often have 7-day battery life.
For charting, weather, tides, marina data. AIS, and a dozen other things you need an iPad. It needs a 12v to USB converter so it can be charged when the engine is running. You could also try one of those power packs meant for extending the life of an iPad. But get a really big one, 12000mah or above (£25) Charge it in port.
Ditch the laptop, they really burn up batteries. And they are too slow.
As for the generator: No. They are so noisy, especially resonating through your deck or pontoon that you won't want it running for more than 20 minutes, which is pointless. And in a silent Loch, you will be a very unwelcome visitor.
Start off using your planned batteries with AIS on and your normal pattern of use. At the first stop review the loads and adjust accordingly. It pays to have a battery monitor. Buy more batteries (on the Internet if needed, delivered to your marina) and build up your capacity if needed.
Don't fit solar voltaic panels on a small sailboat. It will work on a motor boat with a clear deck and view of the sky, but as soon as you get shadows from sails or rigging across a panel it reduces output to practically zero. The money is better spent on more batteries. Besides, for a live aboard, you will need about 3sq m of panels to make enough in the six hours of useful daylight when they aren't heeled the wrong way, those dinky little panels that you see around the marina are for show not go.
Relax, and go!!
But today .... we sometimes shudder at the thought of a single engine off a rocky shoreline, with no VHF or cellphone. And if our one-year old had needed a doctor .... uuugh!! We had a dinghy and outboard always ready, and lots of buoyancy aids, flares, and common sense; so it was a great holiday.
Now that we have mobile phones, there is no excuse to not have them. Either buy a high powered wall mounted one with a high gain antenna, or at least buy three or four £10 non-smart phones on all the different networks so you can use the one with signal. When I'm forest walking I have one in each pocket in case I fall in a ditch!! It pays to have a non-smart phone because they often have 7-day battery life.
For charting, weather, tides, marina data. AIS, and a dozen other things you need an iPad. It needs a 12v to USB converter so it can be charged when the engine is running. You could also try one of those power packs meant for extending the life of an iPad. But get a really big one, 12000mah or above (£25) Charge it in port.
Ditch the laptop, they really burn up batteries. And they are too slow.
As for the generator: No. They are so noisy, especially resonating through your deck or pontoon that you won't want it running for more than 20 minutes, which is pointless. And in a silent Loch, you will be a very unwelcome visitor.
Start off using your planned batteries with AIS on and your normal pattern of use. At the first stop review the loads and adjust accordingly. It pays to have a battery monitor. Buy more batteries (on the Internet if needed, delivered to your marina) and build up your capacity if needed.
Don't fit solar voltaic panels on a small sailboat. It will work on a motor boat with a clear deck and view of the sky, but as soon as you get shadows from sails or rigging across a panel it reduces output to practically zero. The money is better spent on more batteries. Besides, for a live aboard, you will need about 3sq m of panels to make enough in the six hours of useful daylight when they aren't heeled the wrong way, those dinky little panels that you see around the marina are for show not go.
Relax, and go!!
emnick
Well-Known Member
We brought one with us (Kipor1kw) on our round GB trip, we went clockwise and west of Ireland so from Clare up to Derry didn't see any marina. My Fear was that after being anchored in some remote place the engine would not start (we have a relay instead of a split charge diode or battery switch) . If you have a battery switch and leave on 'Both' then in theory you could flatten both batteries. We had a Rutland wind Gen and also 0ne 30w solar panel. Seemed to keep up with things.
I would do the trip again as most enjoyable (www.sailblogs.com/member/may)
I would do the trip again as most enjoyable (www.sailblogs.com/member/may)
Baggy
Well-Known Member
[
Hi Robert
Have you considered a Yeoman Plotter
I have never used a chart plotter so dont know power useage
Laptops are power hungary
but have exstensively used a Yeoman Plotter
( circum UK and Atlantic )
connected to an old Garmin GPS
uses milliamps to run.. Marvelous bit of kit IMHO
Hi Robert
Have you considered a Yeoman Plotter
I have never used a chart plotter so dont know power useage
Laptops are power hungary
but have exstensively used a Yeoman Plotter
( circum UK and Atlantic )
connected to an old Garmin GPS
uses milliamps to run.. Marvelous bit of kit IMHO
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
We live aboard for much of the year so have good idea of where the power goes. If you £800 burning a hole in your pocket, there are better ways than spending it all on a PV system. Why are you paying someone to install very simple gear? If you are planning extended trips it's better to DIY so you know how to fix it when it goes wrong.
Many of these things have been mentioned above - You don't need 100AH engine battery, parallel that to the existing domestic and fit smaller car battery for engine start and add a Sterling or Adverc booster to give far quicker and higher charge. Change all bulbs to leds. Why do you need a laptop to store tracks when you have a chart plotter? 10" netbook with 12v brick draws far less power when computer actually needed. Fit minimum 50w solar panel, larger if you have space. AIS may prove to be more of a power draining toy, the majority of coastal boats won't be transmitting, or receiving yours.
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
Do you have any solar panels? I have 2 x 50W panels and 2 x 60AH house batteries, and in five weeks last summer never even came close to being low on power. My requirements are fairly low, though - no plotter, occasional GPS, occasional VHF, LED lights, tablet, netbook and phone kept charged.
Even without solar I would have thought that 200Ah of house bank would be quite enough ... you can safely take 100Ah out of that, and if you are planning to stop every night I would be surprised if you need anything like that between engine runs. I'd add some solar, though, because if your engine goes TU in one of the lonelier bits you'll be fine sailing around but won't have much chance to recharge.
Seajet
...
Robert,
an important point which I think has passed by is, do you have good battery monitors ?
Trouble is nowhere near so bad if you can see it coming and act accordingly, and not knowing your balance in the available electricity bank would be stressful.
For all I know you have all this sorted, just thought I'd mention it.
I found the NASA monitor doesn't give the ' charge remaining ' display they advertise, but once used to it one can get a good idea of how one stands; from the little I've read the more expensive monitors are not golden solutions either.
At the moment my NASA BM-1 has packed up after about 5 years, and following friend and forumite ' Fantasie 19 's advice I have an LCD display and meter to cobble up into a better monitor for about £5.00, if I can ever get my head into electronics mode again - I am a numpty in this dept, have to sit and really think it through.
Meantime the coloured status lights on the solar panel regulator - my only normal charger - are proving sufficient for my purposes, but in your shoes I'd want all the info I could get as to available power.
an important point which I think has passed by is, do you have good battery monitors ?
Trouble is nowhere near so bad if you can see it coming and act accordingly, and not knowing your balance in the available electricity bank would be stressful.
For all I know you have all this sorted, just thought I'd mention it.
I found the NASA monitor doesn't give the ' charge remaining ' display they advertise, but once used to it one can get a good idea of how one stands; from the little I've read the more expensive monitors are not golden solutions either.
At the moment my NASA BM-1 has packed up after about 5 years, and following friend and forumite ' Fantasie 19 's advice I have an LCD display and meter to cobble up into a better monitor for about £5.00, if I can ever get my head into electronics mode again - I am a numpty in this dept, have to sit and really think it through.
Meantime the coloured status lights on the solar panel regulator - my only normal charger - are proving sufficient for my purposes, but in your shoes I'd want all the info I could get as to available power.
jac
Well-Known Member
You've had some good advice on this thread about minimising load and increasing capacity for storage and charging which I would endorse. My 2p
If you are going to combine all your batteries into one bank and buy a separate, smaller dedicated engine start battery - do check the SG of all your cells in all the batteries. If you have a a duff one you can try equalization if your battery charger supports it but should face reality that that battery may be on the way out and probably worth biting the bullet and replacing now, rather than face it somewhere awkward.
Your point re discharging beyond 50% was interesting. Whilst you can do that, the voltage will drop off so that some instruments may die. You also cause damage to the battery and shorten the lifespan considerably. However - the fact remains that each day you need to put back in what you have taken out. If you don't - eventually you will run out of volts!
Energy audit is really easy to do. Apologies if this is teaching grandmothers but you did say you knew nothing - !!! Take each item that will run and look at the technical information in the manual. it should state it's electrical requirements in amps. Simply multiply the amperage by the estimated time it will be in use in 24 hours. Repeat for all items. You might want to consider 3 separate scenarios - Day at anchor - domestic equipment only. Daysailing - say 8-10 hours of navigation + domestic, 24 hour sail - as 2 but more navigation equipment and navlights. As others have said - Battery capacity should be minimum of 2-3 times those.
If you have £800 - £1000 budget to address electricity I would prioritise replacement of any duff batteries or incandescent bulbs and amend my useage to minimise demand. Then look to increase existing charging, via a smart alternator regulator / sterling / larger alternator. Then add more charging - e.g. Solar. Finally if feeling really flash, more batteries but only when you have balanced your demand and supply.
If you are going to combine all your batteries into one bank and buy a separate, smaller dedicated engine start battery - do check the SG of all your cells in all the batteries. If you have a a duff one you can try equalization if your battery charger supports it but should face reality that that battery may be on the way out and probably worth biting the bullet and replacing now, rather than face it somewhere awkward.
Your point re discharging beyond 50% was interesting. Whilst you can do that, the voltage will drop off so that some instruments may die. You also cause damage to the battery and shorten the lifespan considerably. However - the fact remains that each day you need to put back in what you have taken out. If you don't - eventually you will run out of volts!
Energy audit is really easy to do. Apologies if this is teaching grandmothers but you did say you knew nothing - !!! Take each item that will run and look at the technical information in the manual. it should state it's electrical requirements in amps. Simply multiply the amperage by the estimated time it will be in use in 24 hours. Repeat for all items. You might want to consider 3 separate scenarios - Day at anchor - domestic equipment only. Daysailing - say 8-10 hours of navigation + domestic, 24 hour sail - as 2 but more navigation equipment and navlights. As others have said - Battery capacity should be minimum of 2-3 times those.
If you have £800 - £1000 budget to address electricity I would prioritise replacement of any duff batteries or incandescent bulbs and amend my useage to minimise demand. Then look to increase existing charging, via a smart alternator regulator / sterling / larger alternator. Then add more charging - e.g. Solar. Finally if feeling really flash, more batteries but only when you have balanced your demand and supply.
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Seriously thinking about a Rutland and a solar panel - no petrol needed! And not as expensive as I first thought. Both for about the price of the Honda genny - but then just another job installing them!!!
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
I do have a battery monitor which shows the "health" of both batteries. Whether they are "good" or good enough I have now idea. I s'pose I'll find that out.
Touch wood, I have never had a battery problem...................yet.
I agree, all the information is good - providing A: you understand what it's telling you and B: too much information can be confusing!
In my case definitely.
Gordonmc
Well-Known Member
I will second the motion about PV.
Most of the year I am on a swinging mooring and only get into marinas very occasionally with water being a greater need than shore power. With two PV panels on a stern arch my two 150 Ah house batteries have been fine. The cranking battery is on its own dedicated wind generator and ditto.
I have a small 850w two-stroke generator and the only time it has been used in the last three years was when I was using power tools.
Most of the year I am on a swinging mooring and only get into marinas very occasionally with water being a greater need than shore power. With two PV panels on a stern arch my two 150 Ah house batteries have been fine. The cranking battery is on its own dedicated wind generator and ditto.
I have a small 850w two-stroke generator and the only time it has been used in the last three years was when I was using power tools.
alahol2
Well-Known Member
All good advice above. I would add one point that caught me out on a week's cruise. A lazy day and evening at anchor just listening to music on the car 'stereo' very nearly had us out of power. I reckon it probably used 20 - 30 Ah over the day and that wasn't even using high volume. The stereo can be a surprisingly big user.
Mistroma
Well-Known Member
Don't expect too much from a Rutland wind-gen. Our 913 has always averaged around 10Ah/day over the summer for past 3 years. It has produced more than 100Ah/day once or twice each season even in a sheltered anchorage, pretty wild weather though. Rigid solar panels are far and away the best value.
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Thank you "jac".
All that makes a lot of sense. On the plus side, Khamsin was totally re-wired last year, with all LED lights replacements, apart from the masthead which oddly wouldn't accept the LED bulb I bought!
Also, my two current batteries (no pun intended) starter and house were new in 2012 and I have a brand new 100Ah spare.
I know nothing about "smart regulators", but have tried to contact Ardverc - but the guy is out at the mo.
What does a smart regulator do, and how?
Keep it coming guys, and girls.
Robert
All that makes a lot of sense. On the plus side, Khamsin was totally re-wired last year, with all LED lights replacements, apart from the masthead which oddly wouldn't accept the LED bulb I bought!
Also, my two current batteries (no pun intended) starter and house were new in 2012 and I have a brand new 100Ah spare.
I know nothing about "smart regulators", but have tried to contact Ardverc - but the guy is out at the mo.
What does a smart regulator do, and how?
Keep it coming guys, and girls.
Robert
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Ouch! Perhaps I won't be listening to my eclectic selection of CDs then. Thanks for the warning.
I hate the look of wind turbines - on boats and land. so I'm grateful for the tip.
Looks like hefty PVs. Good.
Thank you
jac
Well-Known Member
The how is very technical!
Simple version is that alternators rarely output near their peak output as the batteries don't need it / can't take it. so if you have a 50 amp alternator in one hour it won't have given you 50amp-hours of power. as batteries get closer to 100% that becomes even harder to achieve.
Smart chargers basically fool the alternator to give out more power than they otherwise would, resulting in more charge to your battery in a given time. Theoretical downside that it means the alternator works harder, gets hotter so can wear out sooner so make sure that whatever one you fit has a sensor on the alternator to help protect it.
jac
Well-Known Member
Might want to have a look at the 914i which is basically the 913 mark 2.
Claims to have much higher output and delivers from less than 10 knots whereas iirc the 913 needed a higher windspeed to start producing making it virtually useless in a sheltered anchorage.
The advantage of wind genny of course is that if there is enough wind to sail ( say Top of F3 upwards) then it will produce enough power to run the equipment. if there is too little wind then you will probably motor and have lots of power anyway.
The HUGE downside is the vibration ( although apparently rubbery washers / spacers eliminate virtually all of that) and potential noise together with having fast moving parts near head height.
Robert Wilson
Well-Known Member
Sorry, when I said "how" I meant how is it fixed/installed/wired? Easy, complicated or fiendish!!
Not that I'll be doing the wiry bit, but maybe the screw/thump/puff bit!
Not that I'll be doing the wiry bit, but maybe the screw/thump/puff bit!
Stemar
Well-Known Member
Generators are hateful things in a quite anchorage! I'm mulling over the possibility of doing the same trip in my Snapdragon in a year or two, and I'd far rather motor for an hour or two a day than run a genny.
I'd have to agree with those who've suggested solar panels. As mentioned above, rigid panels are far and away the biggest bang for your buck, and I'd get the biggest I can reasonably fit, as the marginal cost of going up a size is low compared with the inconvenience of not having enough umph. I don't run a laptop but, otherwise, my needs are similar to yours and I found that, in summer, at least, our 40w of solar panels kept up with our usage over the last couple of years.
Because the only place I could fit them is on the hatch garage, where they risk being shaded by the boom, I got two smaller panels wired in parallel (+ to + & - to -), as a little bit of shade can drag down the whole panel, so I'll get more out of one shaded small panel and one unshaded one than one big panel with the same shading.
I'd also go for a dual battery controller for the panels. Mine's set up to charge the starter battery until it's full, then turn its attention to the domestic one. The logic being that the starter battery's always full, so I'll "always" be able to start the engine, and if the domestic one gets hungry, I can always run the engine if I need to.
For battery monitoring, I use a couple of £2 voltmeters from eBay, one for each battery. The theory is quite complicated, but as a rule of thumb, at rest, over 13v means they're charging, around 12.7v means they're fully charged, at 12.4v I start turning things off and at 12.2v I reckon I want to get some juice in PDQ. With a couple of lights and the radio on, I'll knock a couple of tenths off that.
I'd have to agree with those who've suggested solar panels. As mentioned above, rigid panels are far and away the biggest bang for your buck, and I'd get the biggest I can reasonably fit, as the marginal cost of going up a size is low compared with the inconvenience of not having enough umph. I don't run a laptop but, otherwise, my needs are similar to yours and I found that, in summer, at least, our 40w of solar panels kept up with our usage over the last couple of years.
Because the only place I could fit them is on the hatch garage, where they risk being shaded by the boom, I got two smaller panels wired in parallel (+ to + & - to -), as a little bit of shade can drag down the whole panel, so I'll get more out of one shaded small panel and one unshaded one than one big panel with the same shading.
I'd also go for a dual battery controller for the panels. Mine's set up to charge the starter battery until it's full, then turn its attention to the domestic one. The logic being that the starter battery's always full, so I'll "always" be able to start the engine, and if the domestic one gets hungry, I can always run the engine if I need to.
For battery monitoring, I use a couple of £2 voltmeters from eBay, one for each battery. The theory is quite complicated, but as a rule of thumb, at rest, over 13v means they're charging, around 12.7v means they're fully charged, at 12.4v I start turning things off and at 12.2v I reckon I want to get some juice in PDQ. With a couple of lights and the radio on, I'll knock a couple of tenths off that.