pmyatt
Well-Known Member
Have a look at this gear - we've used it for the past 5 years with no problems and, I think, it's cheaper than the one you are researching.
http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/the-hows/electric-powered/metal-detective.aspx
Diving with a hookah
- Thread starter nigelmercier
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Have a look at this gear - we've used it for the past 5 years with no problems and, I think, it's cheaper than the one you are researching.
http://www.airlinebyjsink.com/the-hows/electric-powered/metal-detective.aspx
nigelmercier
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It's a lot more expensive than DIY.
cliff
Well-Known Member
For those who now what they are doing, definitely "safe as houses" and most definitely safer than crossing the road. The problems arise when you have a bunch of amateurs with little knowledge or experience coming over as if they are the world's greatest experts on diving (and actually believing they are)
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
It is more expensive than assembling the gear yourself but that is to be expected. Notice how Thomas pumps are used as the basis for all the commercial units. They have a 100% rating for continuing use. The link that pmyatt posted has a good bit of info at the bottom. My unit is mounted on a horse shoe shaped ss pipe frame. The ss tube is 2.5" section and the motor mounts on this. The air is pumped into this at one end of the horse shoe and the pipe comes off the other end. This acts as a holding tank and also cools the air before it gets to the plastic pipe. When your diving all the pipe gets put into the water even though you might be just under the keel. The battery I use is a 26 hour deep cycle unit. The frames main use is to sit the pump and wrap the hose around when storing. The large commercial units scallop divers use also utilise the frame for air storage and also the protective dive cage. The very flexible black hose to the regulator is a very good investment, the yellow hose is stiff and wants to pull the reg from your mouth a bit.
DinghyMan
Well-Known Member
Your tag line is an appropriate response to your own post
crisjones
Well-Known Member
You need to be sure that any compressor you use is "OIL FREE" not just "OIL LESS" they are not necessarily the same thing!!! Oil Free units will have sealed for life bearings and self lubricating plastic (ptfe / teflon) sealing rings if they are piston type units or will be flexible diaphragms with, again, no lubrication required. If the unit is OK for paint spraying then it should be OK for diving to the shallow depths that Hookahs are designed for.
As said above if you are only compressing the air that you would breathe on the surface, and you are not introducing any contaminants via the compressor or delivery hose then it should be safe. A filter on the intake to prevent dust and insects etc is a must and adding an additional filter on the delivery side will be a good idea but is not essential. With Hookah systems you are only using pressures up to about 60psi, nothing like the pressures that are required to fill SCUBA bottles.
I have been using this unit http://www.amazon.co.uk/Einhell-Lit...id=1375599176&sr=8-19&keywords=air+compressor for hull and prop cleaning. It works very well, providing good quality air with a good tank capacity, I have not noticed any adverse effects at all, although I only use it down to about 3m. I would be happy to use it down to about 10m to free a fouled anchor, for instance, but would be wary about using it for longer periods at those depths. No practical reason for these concerns, just being careful. I would imagine that if it provides safe air at 3m for a couple of hours then the air will be just as good at 10m for a sensible amount of time.
I appreciate it is 240V so not suitable for most boats, but we have an inverter that drives it quite happily so it meets our needs perfectly. I could also use it in the dinghy with a suitcase type generator if required, but then you really must be sure that the generator exhaust cannot get anywhere near the compressor intake!!
As said above if you are only compressing the air that you would breathe on the surface, and you are not introducing any contaminants via the compressor or delivery hose then it should be safe. A filter on the intake to prevent dust and insects etc is a must and adding an additional filter on the delivery side will be a good idea but is not essential. With Hookah systems you are only using pressures up to about 60psi, nothing like the pressures that are required to fill SCUBA bottles.
I have been using this unit http://www.amazon.co.uk/Einhell-Lit...id=1375599176&sr=8-19&keywords=air+compressor for hull and prop cleaning. It works very well, providing good quality air with a good tank capacity, I have not noticed any adverse effects at all, although I only use it down to about 3m. I would be happy to use it down to about 10m to free a fouled anchor, for instance, but would be wary about using it for longer periods at those depths. No practical reason for these concerns, just being careful. I would imagine that if it provides safe air at 3m for a couple of hours then the air will be just as good at 10m for a sensible amount of time.
I appreciate it is 240V so not suitable for most boats, but we have an inverter that drives it quite happily so it meets our needs perfectly. I could also use it in the dinghy with a suitcase type generator if required, but then you really must be sure that the generator exhaust cannot get anywhere near the compressor intake!!
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Marsupial
Well-Known Member
I use one of these:
http://www.its.co.uk/pd/AC640-Makit...MAKAC640.htm?gclid=CM7Ui_C-47gCFU3LtAodqgUAjw
set to 65 psi with a hookamax regulator and 100 ft of hose, a weight belt, mask snorkel and a BCD.
Works a treat!
we do have a 4KVA genny - it wont work without it - or shore power.
BUT it is also useful as a compressor in its own right for spraying, drilling, polishing, inflating bead blasting and blowing out jets in outboard carbs.
I can understand the Brits not liking hookahs, elf and safety have put the fear of god into them. Happily the inventor of SCUBA was an amateur and French - so what's the problem? Before Gagnan and Costeau 1943 most systems were surface air supply and for the purposes of freeing props and cleaning bottoms the system works very well. Knowledge of underwater procedures is a must so a course is worth doing. My dive instructor had never seen a hookah but when introduced to it couldn't see anything wrong with the system - for shallow dives. Far less stress on the lungs than just a snorkel and you can stay down longer; now that is an issue - 1 hour should be about the maximum.
Hookamax suggested that my compressor was a bit oversized - not a great fault in my opinion certainly the motors is only running for about a third of the time because the accumulator tank is at 110 PSI, supplying air at 65 psi.
I am bit puzzled by the air contamination comments, the air through the regulator tastes the same as the open air - so what's the problem? the compressor has a filter and there is a in line filter to but it has never caught anything.
In many countries I have seen "divers" with a compressor and hose and nothing else, breathing air the way divers are taught should the regulator go free flow - not sure I am that brave yet.
http://www.its.co.uk/pd/AC640-Makit...MAKAC640.htm?gclid=CM7Ui_C-47gCFU3LtAodqgUAjw
set to 65 psi with a hookamax regulator and 100 ft of hose, a weight belt, mask snorkel and a BCD.
Works a treat!
we do have a 4KVA genny - it wont work without it - or shore power.
BUT it is also useful as a compressor in its own right for spraying, drilling, polishing, inflating bead blasting and blowing out jets in outboard carbs.
I can understand the Brits not liking hookahs, elf and safety have put the fear of god into them. Happily the inventor of SCUBA was an amateur and French - so what's the problem? Before Gagnan and Costeau 1943 most systems were surface air supply and for the purposes of freeing props and cleaning bottoms the system works very well. Knowledge of underwater procedures is a must so a course is worth doing. My dive instructor had never seen a hookah but when introduced to it couldn't see anything wrong with the system - for shallow dives. Far less stress on the lungs than just a snorkel and you can stay down longer; now that is an issue - 1 hour should be about the maximum.
Hookamax suggested that my compressor was a bit oversized - not a great fault in my opinion certainly the motors is only running for about a third of the time because the accumulator tank is at 110 PSI, supplying air at 65 psi.
I am bit puzzled by the air contamination comments, the air through the regulator tastes the same as the open air - so what's the problem? the compressor has a filter and there is a in line filter to but it has never caught anything.
In many countries I have seen "divers" with a compressor and hose and nothing else, breathing air the way divers are taught should the regulator go free flow - not sure I am that brave yet.
nigelmercier
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Yes, I have now dropped the original pump and I'm looking into the Thomas 907CDC18 Pump or similar.
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Skylark
Well-Known Member
I vaguely recall a TV documentary many years ago about Hooka divers from SE Asia. They used a small commercial air compressor with orange juice added to the sump to improve the taste of the air. No regulator, just breathing from the open hose. At the other extreme, we have the HS&E police to tell us how to live our lives safely. Common sense prevails somewhere in between.
I've been a BSAC diver and diving instructor for many years. Whenever this particular query is raised, our Australian friends always jump to its support so it most certainly has recreational followers. Scuba is very widespread and in common use in UK and the rest of Europe. The vast majority of the kit available is built to high standards.
I've never experienced a bad fill and I've only ever seen it once. The guy in question was smart enough to surface when he started to feel queasy. He was very sick as a result and it took a few weeks for normality to be restored.
I personally think that you are bonkers, Nigel, to want to build your own equipment. Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive. Without being melodramatic, some things are best left to commercial enterprise, especially if you life depends upon it.
If you are already going down the PADI training route, I struggle to think what the constraint with self contained underwater breathing apparatus could be to drive you towards diy Hooka. It would be wrong of me to draw conclusions without facts and I admit to knowing very little about Hooka but a simple Risk Assessment of what could go wrong with a diy set-up makes me think that it's not worth it.
I've been a BSAC diver and diving instructor for many years. Whenever this particular query is raised, our Australian friends always jump to its support so it most certainly has recreational followers. Scuba is very widespread and in common use in UK and the rest of Europe. The vast majority of the kit available is built to high standards.
I've never experienced a bad fill and I've only ever seen it once. The guy in question was smart enough to surface when he started to feel queasy. He was very sick as a result and it took a few weeks for normality to be restored.
I personally think that you are bonkers, Nigel, to want to build your own equipment. Sorry, I don't mean to be offensive. Without being melodramatic, some things are best left to commercial enterprise, especially if you life depends upon it.
If you are already going down the PADI training route, I struggle to think what the constraint with self contained underwater breathing apparatus could be to drive you towards diy Hooka. It would be wrong of me to draw conclusions without facts and I admit to knowing very little about Hooka but a simple Risk Assessment of what could go wrong with a diy set-up makes me think that it's not worth it.
nigelmercier
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Risk Assessment: a nonsense created to give bored managers something to do, and giving them the opportunity of blaming someone else.
Go on then, what could go wrong that can't be overcome by just coming back to the surface? I'm only talking about going down 1m or so, but I run out of breath if I snorkel.
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
The first one is duration - SCUBA gear needs refilling hookah equipment does not - mine is good for around 1,200 hours (1 tank of diesel) so I am unlikely to be out of air and unable to dive.
The second is the tank on your back can get in the way - but then so can the hookah hose; but the hookah hose is much smaller
The third is tank tests - Hookahs don't have tanks that need testing.
Had my DIY system for 4 years now and can see no reason to change it for SCUBA gear for maintenance jobs under water.
AND see my previous post above SCUBA is a DIY Lash-up err invention, - so again: what's the problem with a Hookah?
crisjones
Well-Known Member
Dave is making the usual comments that we see from Scuba divers / instructors, all related to H&S etc - nothing really wrong with that, apart from the BSAC do seem to have a serious problem with Hookah systems yet they never really seem to be able to explain exactly why that is the case. However it should be made quite clear that the majority of hookah users very rarely venture much deeper than 5m with 10m being the normal max depth (some hookah sytems will work to 20 or 25m). Scuba divers routinely dive to much deeper depths and then the H&S concerns become much more valid, as do dive times and decompression stops etc etc. You could almost say they are two different systems with different aims.
A DIY Hookah system is perfectly safe provided you take sensible precautions and only use it at shallow depths - it is also much, much cheaper than a commercial hookah system or a full Scuba kit. Cost is a big issue to most people and before anybody says you cannot put a price on your life, I am not saying that you should use an unsafe system just because it is cheap!!
As has been said the use of Hookah systems is widespread in Aus and NZ, it is also widely used in the USA where the ambulance chasing lawyers would have a field day if it were as unsafe as some people try to make out.
I agree with Nigel - what can really go wrong at 2m down that cannot be rectified by simply coming to the surface??? Possibly you could get trapped by your hose being jammed - the same could happen with scuba, inboth cases you could simply jettison all the kit and swim up to the fresh air. I regularly dive to 3 or 4m without any breathing apparatus apart from a snorkel, how silly is that??
When the Hookah system is only compressing the normal surface air that you breath 24/7 to about 60 psi then there really is no problem if your dive depth is less than 10m or 1 atmosphere. Even at that depth you would probably still be able to swim to the surface if anything went wrong. I accept that safety stops would be a good idea but from 10m you would be unlucky to suffer any adverse effects from a rapid ascent unless you had been down there for a considerable time. From 3m down, a rapid ascent to the surface if anything went wrong would be no problem for anyone.
A DIY Hookah system is perfectly safe provided you take sensible precautions and only use it at shallow depths - it is also much, much cheaper than a commercial hookah system or a full Scuba kit. Cost is a big issue to most people and before anybody says you cannot put a price on your life, I am not saying that you should use an unsafe system just because it is cheap!!
As has been said the use of Hookah systems is widespread in Aus and NZ, it is also widely used in the USA where the ambulance chasing lawyers would have a field day if it were as unsafe as some people try to make out.
I agree with Nigel - what can really go wrong at 2m down that cannot be rectified by simply coming to the surface??? Possibly you could get trapped by your hose being jammed - the same could happen with scuba, inboth cases you could simply jettison all the kit and swim up to the fresh air. I regularly dive to 3 or 4m without any breathing apparatus apart from a snorkel, how silly is that??
When the Hookah system is only compressing the normal surface air that you breath 24/7 to about 60 psi then there really is no problem if your dive depth is less than 10m or 1 atmosphere. Even at that depth you would probably still be able to swim to the surface if anything went wrong. I accept that safety stops would be a good idea but from 10m you would be unlucky to suffer any adverse effects from a rapid ascent unless you had been down there for a considerable time. From 3m down, a rapid ascent to the surface if anything went wrong would be no problem for anyone.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
Risk assessment is not a nonsense, but some results of a risk assessment are downright balderdash. I do not have enough knowledge to pass a personal judgement but I am well aware that breathing gas problems are compounded by increases in pressure above atmospheric. On that basis I would expect that using such a system for work on a normal recreational yacht is unlikely to be very risky
cliff
Well-Known Member
See my earlier post.
1) A dive to 30' shuld be limited to 2 hours max over that decompression stop required.
2) From 30' to the surface is the most dangerous zone during an ascent irrespective of your max depth or bottom time. Look up Boyle's law and embolism
3) From 10' to the surface you can still do serious damage to your ears and lungs (4~5 psi is enough to rupture your lungs or burst ear drums)
Problem is unless you are properly trained and experienced the tendency is to hold your breath when ascending. With training and practice (experience) it is quite feasible to perform a free ascent from 100' + either in controlled mode (slowly) or "polaris" mode (rapidly) with no ill effects but breathing out all the way and especially the last 15~20'. - forgot, H&S frown on practising such emergency drills - can only talk about it.
fishermantwo
Well-Known Member
Many years ago I was in the navy. One of the people I joined with became a navy diver and died whilst breathing from a contaminated bottle. As I mentioned previously the commercial operators are the big users of hookahs in this country especially in the abalone fishery. The diver has a line and the self propelled cage has its own line. I guess you could shelter in the cage from a shark with bottles but I think the hookah has an advantage.
I notice locally that small pony bottles are now being advertised for hookah divers for use if their air supply should shut off but that is just advertising. In the ad they mention 3 metres, I think most people can make a reasonable ascent from 3 metres.
The only rule with hookad diving is keep breathing. No holding your breath.