NormanS
Well-Known Member
When I had a very small yacht, I would feel the chain to detect dragging. Now I just check a handy transit. (Also, the chain outboard of the bow roller is difficult to reach).
Diving on anchors
- Thread starter Neeves
- Start date
Neeves
Well-Known Member
We feel the chain, check the GPS, set up transits - tidy up - check again, Relax.
Our bow roller, and chain, is easily accessible
Feeling the chain, dying art?
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I agree, advent of decent cameras, unique location - good combination. But unique location does little to increase learning in other locations.
The fashion, fad, seemed to suddenly lose momentum??
Noelex' pictures are/were a unique and valuable album of one person's 'view' or assessment in one geographic location. It is a pity, surprise, disappointment it wad taken down as 'sticky' - I wonder why?
Jonathan
Last edited:
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Probably, but by the time one has established dragging by holding onto the chain, it is fairly obvious from any old transit and it usually can be heard as well.
Balbas
Well-Known Member
Hard to imagine anyone who actually considered jumping off the back of the boat for a swim as needing a risk assessment would do something as dodgy as go sailing
Could tip that on it's head and say that it's hard to imagine that someone who mistrusts their anchoring so much that they have to inspect the hook, would do something as dodgy as leaving a nice safe marina.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Could tip that on it's head and say that it's hard to imagine that someone who mistrusts their anchoring so much that they have to inspect the hook, would do something as dodgy as leaving a nice safe marina.
Not mistrust, just gain extra confidence. We anchor for nearly half the year, often in seabeds that are hard, stony, weedy, and otherwise not perfect. Swimming out to have a look helps to overcome problems that might arise, even after watching transits while reversing at 2500 rpm.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Could tip that on it's head and say that it's hard to imagine that someone who mistrusts their anchoring so much that they have to inspect the hook, would do something as dodgy as leaving a nice safe marina.
Where did mistrust anchoring come from?? Don't think that's been mentioned, posts and photos above detailing why it's a good idea not to be completely cock sure about the bottom, you might be hooked on a ledge and be none the wiser.
So where's the down side - why not have a little swim if the waters nice and clear then have a look down at the hook while you're at it?
Why be so anti having a look?
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Hard to imagine anyone who actually considered jumping off the back of the boat for a swim as needing a risk assessment would do something as dodgy as go sailing
Do you look before you jump, check your mask and snorkel, thats a risk assessment. Hard to imagine why people think risk assessment needs to be difficult, in fact, I am pretty sure that most sailors will be assessing risks most of the time, even if they don't realise it.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Another oddity and contradiction
Diving on anchors - its all about the Med where the water is warm, clear and relatively safe. Its all very well diving and being confident your anchor is well set, or not, and then doing something about it if its not set. Great confidence booster. Once your anchor is set, or you think it set, you can then post images.
What about the rest of the yachting community, or what about those that need that confidence boost when they venture someplace else.
It has already been mentioned diving on anchors is not a UK practice. In Australia it has its dangers and the water is not crystal clear, one reason being the parrot fish who grind up coral. Many places the water is cold (S Island NZ, Norwegian Atlantic Coast, NW America Pacific Coast, Chilean coast - and yes a dry suit helps - but its a bit of a faff at 2am to don a dry suit. If the tides are strong, and I can think off places in Oz, I would not swim, at all.
If you need to dive to assess your anchor you are going to be very restricted in your sailing - you need to develop confidence in your anchor from 'on deck' - not by looking at it underwater.
I do check our anchors - for academic reasons (or because I have a phobia on performance) but I have never once looked underwater or from a dinghy (we have a baroscope - though I like the idea of the window in the dinghy) to check the anchor is safely set. Power setting, transits, decent GPS, feel - works, and has worked, for us.
But everyone to their own.
Jonathan
Diving on anchors - its all about the Med where the water is warm, clear and relatively safe. Its all very well diving and being confident your anchor is well set, or not, and then doing something about it if its not set. Great confidence booster. Once your anchor is set, or you think it set, you can then post images.
What about the rest of the yachting community, or what about those that need that confidence boost when they venture someplace else.
It has already been mentioned diving on anchors is not a UK practice. In Australia it has its dangers and the water is not crystal clear, one reason being the parrot fish who grind up coral. Many places the water is cold (S Island NZ, Norwegian Atlantic Coast, NW America Pacific Coast, Chilean coast - and yes a dry suit helps - but its a bit of a faff at 2am to don a dry suit. If the tides are strong, and I can think off places in Oz, I would not swim, at all.
If you need to dive to assess your anchor you are going to be very restricted in your sailing - you need to develop confidence in your anchor from 'on deck' - not by looking at it underwater.
I do check our anchors - for academic reasons (or because I have a phobia on performance) but I have never once looked underwater or from a dinghy (we have a baroscope - though I like the idea of the window in the dinghy) to check the anchor is safely set. Power setting, transits, decent GPS, feel - works, and has worked, for us.
But everyone to their own.
Jonathan
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread. Thank you to all.
Before I became involved in anchor testing, I very rarely dove, but occasionally when something seemed odd. I think only when I would have been swimming for recreation anyway. Otherwise, I would know only what I read in books about actual anchor behavior, and I am not, by nature, one who accepts black box explanations. A few of those times I saw odd things on the bottom that piqued my interest.
Since I started testing, I've learned that a great deal of traditional knowledge is just repetition. One guy wrote it, so others repeat it. That's a terrible way to write, but it's common. My first introduction to this tripe came when I tried to duplicate Rocna's work with tandem anchors. You can't. I really wanted it to work, it would have been perfect for local soupy bottoms, but it does not. The pictures were largely staged. Spade agrees it's tripe, as do most other anchor makers. And yet book after book has a drawing of two anchors in a row, explaining how to set them. Rocna even says they will stay set. I dare you to try it. (Yes, the Navy and oil platforms do this, but they are multi-point moorings that never feel a direction change.) Take pictures, including high load (the only reason you would need it) and a direction change of 20 degrees. So why is this still preached? Habit. People think it worked but they never dove and looked. And it absolutely can work in certain circumstances, but not in the way Rocna explained.
I was also curious as to what makes anchors drag. The only way to know that is to look.
The main reasons for me is education. I read entry after entry by people who claim they "know" by what they feel. Maybe. I'm pretty experienced at that too, from back before GPS. Have they ever dived on anchors or pulled them to failure, testing what they think they know against fact? Or is knowledge based only on the anecdote that they didn't drag this time and they did drag that time? Was the wind strong enough to call it a real test? If they like their answers, good. I got involved in testing because I wanted to know more.
No. I don't need to dive. I probably never did. But between diving, cruising, measuring strains with a load cell, and a lot of figuring, I know more than I used to. I wouldn't want to write on the topic, either, if I didn't think I had something to add.
Before I became involved in anchor testing, I very rarely dove, but occasionally when something seemed odd. I think only when I would have been swimming for recreation anyway. Otherwise, I would know only what I read in books about actual anchor behavior, and I am not, by nature, one who accepts black box explanations. A few of those times I saw odd things on the bottom that piqued my interest.
Since I started testing, I've learned that a great deal of traditional knowledge is just repetition. One guy wrote it, so others repeat it. That's a terrible way to write, but it's common. My first introduction to this tripe came when I tried to duplicate Rocna's work with tandem anchors. You can't. I really wanted it to work, it would have been perfect for local soupy bottoms, but it does not. The pictures were largely staged. Spade agrees it's tripe, as do most other anchor makers. And yet book after book has a drawing of two anchors in a row, explaining how to set them. Rocna even says they will stay set. I dare you to try it. (Yes, the Navy and oil platforms do this, but they are multi-point moorings that never feel a direction change.) Take pictures, including high load (the only reason you would need it) and a direction change of 20 degrees. So why is this still preached? Habit. People think it worked but they never dove and looked. And it absolutely can work in certain circumstances, but not in the way Rocna explained.
I was also curious as to what makes anchors drag. The only way to know that is to look.
The main reasons for me is education. I read entry after entry by people who claim they "know" by what they feel. Maybe. I'm pretty experienced at that too, from back before GPS. Have they ever dived on anchors or pulled them to failure, testing what they think they know against fact? Or is knowledge based only on the anecdote that they didn't drag this time and they did drag that time? Was the wind strong enough to call it a real test? If they like their answers, good. I got involved in testing because I wanted to know more.
No. I don't need to dive. I probably never did. But between diving, cruising, measuring strains with a load cell, and a lot of figuring, I know more than I used to. I wouldn't want to write on the topic, either, if I didn't think I had something to add.
Last edited:
William_H
Well-Known Member
It is funny how attitudes to swimming around a boat and snorkeling down to an anchor vary so much in different parts of the world. I would not hesitate to snorkel down to look at my anchor if I was in the mood for a swim. Assuming it is easy to get back on the boat. As for doing at night why not. A decent water proof torch and you can haul your self down the rope/chain no problems in fact quite fun. Sharks well yes we do have shark attacks. But that might reflect the huge number of people in the water and the huge coast line of Oz. Certainly insignificant compared to number of injuries in motor accidents of I suspect deaths from exposure in winter in UK. So no I don'tt even think about sharks. ol'will
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Well.....
You would not normally plan to arrive in an anchorage at 2am - nothing wrong with 2am but if that's what happens, it happens. Assuming you started early then by the time it is 2am you will have possibly be at sea for nearly 24 hours, not enough to have a decent sleep. The 2am arrival might be because the wind was frustratingly light or, character building, strong - or simply that's how long it take to get from A - B at a decent speed - and there are no intermediate anchorages.
The risk assessment that would take place once the anchor is deployed, in our case, would be something like
We are tired and jaded, its dark, the weather was frustrating, the sea is cold, our anchor has proven reliable, our transits look good, the GPS position has not changed -
Been there, done that.
Why put on a wet suit?
I must confess to having gone for a swim once in Hong Kong off our X-99. There were Portugese Men of War, or their equivalent. I suffered for the rest of the night.
Now tell me again about the fun of checking an anchor at 2am.
But - each to their own. If people lack sufficient confidence, or feel the need for a swim at 2am - good luck to them.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...lled-in-whitsundays-after-attacks-on-tourists
Cid Harbour is a popular location, it is a natural harbour with no facilities. I am not aware there has ever been a shark attack there previously. The water will be warm - just the sort of place to go for a swim at night, and obviously no-one thought about sharks, even after the first attack..
No tell me again about fun.
Jonathan
Cid Harbour is a popular location, it is a natural harbour with no facilities. I am not aware there has ever been a shark attack there previously. The water will be warm - just the sort of place to go for a swim at night, and obviously no-one thought about sharks, even after the first attack..
No tell me again about fun.
Jonathan
Last edited:
noelex
Well-Known Member
Johnathan, I think you are letting your fear of sharks cloud your judgement as to the usefulness of observing the anchor underwater. I agree, underwater observation is certainly not a necessity if you are are interested in your overnight security, although it can occasionally be very useful. For these purposes it is often incorporated in a swim to cool off, which would have been done anyway.
However, its real value as many in this thread have attested, is to learn how anchors work in the real world. This is not always like the manufacturers would suggest they are going to behave.
Australia is a big country and many of the cruising grounds are great places to observe anchors so it is a shame not to take advantage of this. I have had many hundreds of dives in Australia and most of these involve at least a quick look at my anchor and usually other anchors nearby.
Perhaps some statistics will help allay your fears, and stop other members from concluding they should not be swimming when holidaying in Australia.
A study by the University of Melbourne looking at deaths in Australia between 2000 to 2013 revelead the fatalities from Bee and Wasp stings were almost ten times the number from shark attacks. Even the deaths from ants and ticks over this thirteen year period was almost double the number from sharks.
Nothing is completely risk free, but with some sensible precautions you can swim and dive in most parts of Australia with minimal risk from sharks.
But watch out for those ants and ticks
.
However, its real value as many in this thread have attested, is to learn how anchors work in the real world. This is not always like the manufacturers would suggest they are going to behave.
Australia is a big country and many of the cruising grounds are great places to observe anchors so it is a shame not to take advantage of this. I have had many hundreds of dives in Australia and most of these involve at least a quick look at my anchor and usually other anchors nearby.
Perhaps some statistics will help allay your fears, and stop other members from concluding they should not be swimming when holidaying in Australia.
A study by the University of Melbourne looking at deaths in Australia between 2000 to 2013 revelead the fatalities from Bee and Wasp stings were almost ten times the number from shark attacks. Even the deaths from ants and ticks over this thirteen year period was almost double the number from sharks.
Nothing is completely risk free, but with some sensible precautions you can swim and dive in most parts of Australia with minimal risk from sharks.
But watch out for those ants and ticks
.
Dougal
Well-Known Member
A friend and sailing buddy, who was also a PADI certified diver, died while doing this. We were anchored in pretty deep water at Catania Island and, after a beautiful sail from San Diego, via Dena Point, he decided to check his anchor. We never saw him again. We were later told by the local PD and coastguard, that he somehow got his gear caught in his own anchor rode. It was a very sad end to a wonderful time. He always made me laugh, talking about having "dove his boat". We still miss him, and I have NEVER "dove" my anchor since.
GHA
Well-Known Member
Do you mean diving with a scuba tank and gear? Never met anyone who did that, though plenty will grab a mask and have a quick look when going for a swim.
Think all this thread has been more about going for a swim and having a look with a mask on - no need to get anywhere near the hook, even just throw a mask into the dinghy and have a look from the surface when popping ashore can show a lot with nice clear water.
Doubt if many(any?) bother in murky water either.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I have read of a man who dived on his anchor, found it fouled and decided to move it. Standing on the seabed, holding his breath, he heaved upwards, forcing his feet into the bottom. He was unable to free them and he drowned. I have read this several times but it might just be one of those urban myths. Anyone know different?
Dougal
Well-Known Member
No he wasn't wearing his scuba gear. Just mensioned that to show it doesn't matter how experienced you are, bad sh1t can happen to anyone. I no longer take the added risk. Would rather risk a dragging anchor ON the surface!
GHA
Well-Known Member
Why not just look from the surface with no added risk?
Diving deep down with gear certainly doesn't sound risk free.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Saw a statistic recently in Oz on average over past years that there by a factor of 5 times as many fatalities from horse riding than shark attacks. ol'will