Dive boats and passing boats.

Re: Motor sailing cones

So that would mean that a dive boat with a flag means that there are divers down, and a dive boat with a flag and a strobe means "Yes, they really are down"! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
got a pic

I have a pic of I think 2 vessels with cones up, for motor sailing , if anyone would like to see what there vessel would look like with one up. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


PS saw one the other ay on a UKSA vessel and thought


"arr ha exam in progress"
 
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vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery.

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This begs the question –
If a sailing boat just has its main up, is it ‘proceeding under sail’, especially if it has its head to wind, or there is no wind!
Does this also apply to a motor yacht with a mizzen stay sail or a ketch with its mizzen up?

IMO these vessels are NOT ‘proceeding under sail’ as without the engine on the vessel would not proceed!
Equally a yacht under full sail with the engine on but not in gear is NOT ‘being propelled by machinery’.

Tin hat now goes on as I duck for cover.

As for Dive Boats, they have a hell of a job on their hands, if diving a wreck with a shot line, good practice is that divers descend and ascend via the shot line, so the dive boat can then place its self between the divers and any approaching potential hazard. All well and good, but if divers scatter over the wreck and ascend from wherever or on a slow drift dive some divers either stop still or decide to go upstream the dive boat can only motor slowly between the various groups of bubbles or better – around the area of Surface Marker Buoys (SMB’s). It is then much more difficult to warn off any approaching potential hazard.

It is the responsibility of the divers to '''Plan the Dive and Dive the Plan’’’

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Very well said ,,,,,,,, and i hope more seagoers read and learn from this quote.....

Can i also add, that a code ' ALPHA - A ' flag , will be flown from vessels in the Dover Straits and tracking at a slow speed, and normally a ball - diamond - ball , this means the vessel has a CHANNEL SWIMMER . times i have seen people getting close to me and some of the other channel pilot boats..

That said , doesn't mean i'm defending the RhIB's speeding back to the pub for a post dive pint and forgotten to take thier flag down.

I was the skipper of my dive charter boat on Saturday , when a tug ran over the dive site and shotline buoys , bringing a diver on the line to make contact with it .... I can say that my ' A ' flag is of regulation size although a flag and not rigid, but it was clearly seen at full fly as i was abeam of the tug at 15 kts .....

I can tell you this , My ' A ' flag will be flown from 2 minutes before the first diver enters the water , and taken down down when the last is onboard and i radioed back to the coastguard that all my divers are recovered and fit and well.

During the time my ' A ' flag is flying , i will patrol the area of the dive site i am on, and if i think you are a potentional hazard to thier safety, i WILL protect them.

A ' A ' WILL fly from my boat wether i have a swimmer alongside me, a diver from a dive school and all types of diving up to commerical......... PLEASE respect my professionalism and give me a wide berth as safe to do so.

Andy
 
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I was the skipper of my dive charter boat on Saturday , when a tug ran over the dive site and shotline buoys , bringing a diver on the line to make contact with it .... I can say that my ' A ' flag is of regulation size although a flag and not rigid, but it was clearly seen at full fly as i was abeam of the tug at 15 kts .....

I can tell you this , My ' A ' flag will be flown from 2 minutes before the first diver enters the water , and taken down down when the last is onboard and i radioed back to the coastguard that all my divers are recovered and fit and well.

During the time my ' A ' flag is flying , i will patrol the area of the dive site i am on, and if i think you are a potentional hazard to thier safety, i WILL protect them.

Andy

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Andy,

Sorry, but as I said on Saturday, moving off station and heading towards the incoming vessel is guaranteed to ensure that your Alpha flag is rendered invisible. As soon as you have moved off it also means that the other vessel has no idea where the divers are; even if he realises that there are divers in the area.

The correct place for a dive boat to be is over the divers he is protecting. Whilst remaining stationary it may be appropriate to turn broadside on so that your visual target, and the radar target, are maximised. The flag is probably also more likely to be seen, particularly if it is on the stern.

Heading at speed at another vessel is NOT an advisable collision avoidance technique. Other methods are available.
 
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I think you are ducking half the case

At least one sail up, check.
Boat NOT making way, check.
So that’s why the Prop is turning in the water and propelling the boat, check.
Cone or No Cone?

At least one sail up, check.
Boat underway and making way, check.
Engine on but Prop NOT turning in the water and propelling the boat, check.
Cone or No Cone?

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First example, cone (engine propelling boat, therefore you are making way!) .

Second example, no cone (not being propelled by machinery)

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Is it that difficult to understand /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

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No, I didn't think so...
 
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I have never bothered to hoist a cone - ever - but then it is decades since I have been in Chichester Harbour. It is pretty easy to work out if a yacht has its motor driving it if viewed from another small boat. Frankly I think it all a bit irrelevant.

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There's a simple rule of thumb that I was thought on one of my first trips to sea when I was a young deck cadet. If we all obey the rules, without deviating from them, we'll all be alright. It's a simple rule of thumb and easy to remember.

With regard to the above posters comments. What if you are viewing it the motoring yahct from a fishing boat (engaged in fishing) or a large tanker? Suddenly the senario changes completely. The fact that you think it irrelevant doesn't mean that it should be disregarded. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
For any of the posters who find displaying a cone an item of amusment, then perhaps we will not hear from them reporting some other sea user ignoring the Col regs. That should cut down the number of threads on col reg subjects, shouldnt it?

There is only one set of col regs, you cannot pick and choose the bits you want.
 
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I was the skipper of my dive charter boat on Saturday , when a tug ran over the dive site and shotline buoys , bringing a diver on the line to make contact with it .... I can say that my ' A ' flag is of regulation size although a flag and not rigid, but it was clearly seen at full fly as i was abeam of the tug at 15 kts .....

I can tell you this , My ' A ' flag will be flown from 2 minutes before the first diver enters the water , and taken down down when the last is onboard and i radioed back to the coastguard that all my divers are recovered and fit and well.

During the time my ' A ' flag is flying , i will patrol the area of the dive site i am on, and if i think you are a potentional hazard to thier safety, i WILL protect them.

Andy

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Andy,

Sorry, but as I said on Saturday, moving off station and heading towards the incoming vessel is guaranteed to ensure that your Alpha flag is rendered invisible. As soon as you have moved off it also means that the other vessel has no idea where the divers are; even if he realises that there are divers in the area.

The correct place for a dive boat to be is over the divers he is protecting. Whilst remaining stationary it may be appropriate to turn broadside on so that your visual target, and the radar target, are maximised. The flag is probably also more likely to be seen, particularly if it is on the stern.

Heading at speed at another vessel is NOT an advisable collision avoidance technique. Other methods are available.

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Hi Joe.

My ' A ' Flag is on the top of the wheel house roof , at it's highest point........ It is clearly seen when the vessel is stationary..... at speed it flies to aft, same as any otherflag ,,,, the A flag was and can be clearly seen when pacing another vessel on her beam ......

As going into a head on situ,,,,,,, even surely a basic day skipper with no experience would have STOPPED of taken some sort of anti collision avoidance....

If i had stayed on the shotline with protecting my divers,,, i am 90 % sure that he would have ran me down as well,,,,, thats comforting to the divers to surface and have no surface support....... don't you think.....?

What other methods do you suggest ?


Andy
 
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I can say that my ' A ' flag is of regulation size although a flag and not rigid,

[/ QUOTE ] Therefore by your own admission you were in violation of colregs.
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but it was clearly seen at full fly as i was abeam of the tug at 15 kts .....

[/ QUOTE ] not necessarily correct - it could / should have been seen is more accurate.
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I can tell you this , My ' A ' flag will be flown from 2 minutes before the first diver enters the water , and taken down down when the last is onboard and i radioed back to the coastguard that all my divers are recovered and fit and well.

[/ QUOTE ]Who do you think you are to tell anyone here anything. If you toned down the wording of your posts you might gain a little respect.
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During the time my ' A ' flag is flying , i will patrol the area of the dive site i am on, and if i think you are a potentional hazard to thier safety, i WILL protect them.

[/ QUOTE ]Exactly how will you protect them?, by charging at other vessels head-on or threatening the other vessel with flares / flare gun or cutting across their bows or attempting to ram them?

Charging at other vessels and leaving your station above or close to the divers is hardly providing cover. To threaten other vessels with ramming or with flares is nothing short of criminal - violation of colregs? threatening another vessel with a firearm or "incendary projectile" - piracy?, maybe, but definitely criminal. Is it the adrenaline rush your crave or are you simply on an ego trip?

I am sorry to say with your attitude you do not help your case nor inspire (in me at least) much, if any, confidence in your "professionalism".
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A ' A ' WILL fly from my boat wether i have a swimmer alongside me, a diver from a dive school and all types of diving up to commerical......... PLEASE respect my professionalism and give me a wide berth as safe to do so.
Andy

[/ QUOTE ]"A" > "I have divers down, please give me a wide berth" or words to that effect - no mention of swimmers - I think you need to study your signals and colregs before you either have or cause an accident. You seem to expect everyone else to obey colregs and signals but you, by your own admission, ignore them. Why then do you expect others to follow them?

Based on a percieved "gung-ho" attitude on your part I would never charter your vessel with you onboard. IMHO you are a bigger danger to your divers than other vessels in the area and that is from 35 years of my own diving experience (not to mention a diver-coxswain ticket).

IMHO a safer system to adopt is for the main dive boat to anchor over the wreck or dive site and drop a shot line onto the wreck and then pull clear.
Before anyone enters the water at least one hi-speed inflatable / RIB is launched to act as recovery boat(s) / chase boat(s) (to safely approach any errant vessel and advise them of the diving operations - an operation that does not involve firing flares at the vessel (or threatening to) nor does it involve running on a collision course with the other vessel nor cutting across their bows. All is needed is to run along side them and politely advise them of the diving operations and ASK them, again politely, to stand well clear. With the main dive boat in position it is easy to see where the divers are (or should be). So easy any no one gets their feathers ruffled.
I have used this technique for years and not had a problem nor I am happy to say ever had even any "near misses". There is limited space for our recreation so we do need to play in harmony lest more govt. interference and draconian regulations are imposed.
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hammer.thumb.gif
"Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"
 
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[My ' A ' Flag is on the top of the wheel house roof , at it's highest point........ It is clearly seen when the vessel is stationary..... at speed it flies to aft, same as any otherflag ,,,, the A flag was and can be clearly seen when pacing another vessel on her beam ......

As going into a head on situ,,,,,,, even surely a basic day skipper with no experience would have STOPPED of taken some sort of anti collision avoidance....

If i had stayed on the shotline with protecting my divers,,, i am 90 % sure that he would have ran me down as well,,,,, thats comforting to the divers to surface and have no surface support....... don't you think.....?

What other methods do you suggest ?


Andy

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Andy,

What I have been trying to explain is that the moment you went off station you effectively stopped being a dive boat and simply became a powered boat underway. I do not doubt for one moment that you had the best of intentions, but I do not think you adopted the best course of action.

1. You say that you are 90% certain that the other vessel would have hit you, but you have absolutely nothing to base that on. For all you know he had been tracking you on his radar from 20 miles away, but, when you moved off you became just other moving vessel rather than a static vessel. If he really had not seen you and was on a collision course you could have moved much later (I'm not saying you should have played "chicken", but I am saying that at a mile off it was far too soon to know if he was not going to turn)

2. By heading towards him you ensured that he did not see your flag.

3. The Alpha flag should be rigid and you should ensure that it is clearly visible all round.

4. You say that he could see your flag when you were running abeam to him. Apart from the fact that it was possibly too late then what on earth was he supposed to do or think? You will have read about how often dive boats are seen traveling at speed with the A flag hoisted. For all you know he thought that you were just another dive boat traveling along with the flag up.

5. You deliberately aimed your boat at his, and then you talk about an inexperienced day skipper taking action! Surely an experienced, professional skipper would never try to force the issue like that, particularly with a boat which, I understand, was considerably bigger than yours and consequently less maneuverable.

6. You have asked others to respect your professionalism, but you have been unwilling to credit the skipper of the other boat with any ability at all. From 2.5 miles away you were able to determine that the other boat was not going to take any evasive action and would ram you?!?!?!?!?

So, you ask what else could have been done.........

1. Stay put. A dive boat should stay over the divers it is protecting.

2. On Saturday you said that you turned toward the other vessel . If you had turned broadside on you would have been more visible, by eye and radar.

3. Have the correct flag.

4. On Saturday you said you became aware of the other vessel when he was 2.5 miles away. Why not sooner? If you had been monitoring the radar at greater range you could have picked him up earlier and given yourself more time.

5. If you had detected him earlier you could have used the radio much sooner. (I know that you reported that you had tried the radio and received no response, but he may well have been talking on another channel. By the time you used the radio it was too late to establish contact)

6. Was he AIS enabled?

7. You could have used flares (aimed in the air not at the bridge!) or even smoke to alert him to your presence.

8. You used your spotlight. How much more effective would it have been if you had been on a stable platform, shining it at the bridge for several minutes?

9. You could have considered calling the Coastguard for help.

10. May day/Pan Pan?

I'm sorry if all this sounds harsh and you may be correct that the other vessel was at fault. However, from what you have said I believe that you were, in part at least, also at fault. In my view the moment you decided to leave your position you set the whole sorry story in action.

Joe
 
When I started this thread I was really trying to think of a way of making diving in busy coastal waters a bit safer -

It seems to me that the distance we should keep away from the dive boat (assuming from a distance you can see the flag) varies with the type of dive happening. I was wondering if dive operations should lay out a no entry zone with suitable inflatable markers? Something like that so passing craft have a better feel for where divers may surface and divers know the 'safe' area they can surface in -

As for the anger about cones - from a deck officer - come on - get real - You need pretty good binoculars to see the average cone on a small yacht with all her sails up - if she only has her main up then ........ Of course we should all obey rules but I have seen many many instances of merchant ships not doing so .... as has any professional deck officer going deep water... the world is not a perfect place and sometimes rules are a bit silly.......
 
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As for the anger about cones - from a deck officer - come on - get real

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Anger? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif I simply asked the people bleating on about dive boats if they obeyed the rules when motor sailing?

But I will stand 100% over the point I made about obeying all the rules. Just because you think that "sometimes the rules are a bit silly" deosn't give you the right to disregard them. Any vessel, big or small, who does so runs the risk of causing a danger to navigation or worse.

BTW, every ship is equiped with pretty good binoculars /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I think the dive boat situation is a real and present danger - to the divers! Perhaps a new or better way of marking the dive - swim zone should be considered - Really I am only talking about dives taking place in crowded waters. In isolated places then it is easier to recognise the 'dive' and take appropriate avoiding action....

The motoring cones are something else.... Really do not present much danger to life - Very seldom do 'ships - ferries' in UK coastal waters give way to sail boats - constrained by their draft etc - a bit off shore maybe - way off shore - yes they do - mainly - and certainly after you call them on VHF.

Judging from the other posts I am not the only one who does not hoist a cone whenever I drop the head sail and start the motor or when I use the motor to get closer to the wind or into port sooner... If the vast majority do knowingly do not obey a rule then is there something wrong with the rule????
 
Andy,

What I have been trying to explain is that the moment you went off station you effectively stopped being a dive boat and simply became a powered boat underway. no i wasn't... I was a vessel carrying out underwater operations as the A flag was flying and the dive site was marked. I do not doubt for one moment that you had the best of intentions, but I do not think you adopted the best course of action.

1. You say that you are 90% certain that the other vessel would have hit you, but you have absolutely nothing to base that on. For all you know he had been tracking you on his radar from 20 miles away, but, when you moved off you became just other moving vessel rather than a static vessel. If he really had not seen you and was on a collision course you could have moved much later (I'm not saying you should have played "chicken", but I am saying that at a mile off it was far too soon to know if he was not going to turn)

No, he had rounded the headland of Dungeness, he would not have seen me on radar or visual until at 8 miles away, and as his course on MY radar was that he was on collision i HAD to act ( col reg Rule 2 ).

2. By heading towards him you ensured that he did not see your flag.

*** Using my searchlight to attract attension ( colreg Rule 36 )****

3. The Alpha flag should be rigid and you should ensure that it is clearly visible all round.

4. You say that he could see your flag when you were running abeam to him. Apart from the fact that it was possibly too late then what on earth was he supposed to do or think? You will have read about how often dive boats are seen traveling at speed with the A flag hoisted. For all you know he thought that you were just another dive boat traveling along with the flag up.

*** thats normally dive club diving RhIB's that knwo no better ,,,, I for one run a set check list and procedure , before leaving the dive site to return back to port ****

5. You deliberately aimed your boat at his, and then you talk about an inexperienced day skipper taking action! Surely an experienced, professional skipper would never try to force the issue like that, particularly with a boat which, I understand, was considerably bigger than yours and consequently less maneuverable.

*** I think that a 517 ton tug is highly maneuverable, having been on simialiar vessels, and see them at work most days of the week..also both ( colreg Rule 8 & 14 ) come into play here,,,,,,,, so, if your in your vessel slumped over the wheel from having a heart attack , and i'm steaming at you on autopilot ,,, would you expect me to turn to starboard ? or just hit you ****

6. You have asked others to respect your professionalism, but you have been unwilling to credit the skipper of the other boat with any ability at all. From 2.5 miles away you were able to determine that the other boat was not going to take any evasive action and would ram you?!?!?!?!?

*** see my first answer ***

So, you ask what else could have been done.........

1. Stay put. A dive boat should stay over the divers it is protecting.

*** I had the shotline in my sight all the time until it was on the bows of the tug.... thats why , when the tug run over it , the women that was injured and on the surface only 5 meters off his stern was picked up so quickily by meself. ,,,, I was NOT 10 miles down tide of the dive site ***

2. On Saturday you said that you turned toward the other vessel . If you had turned broadside on you would have been more visible, by eye and radar.

*** The taurus is a Catamaran, it's 10 mts long by 5 mts wide , you basically get the same view either head on or abeam... and get the same radar signature. ****

3. Have the correct flag.

'A' flag was flown , althought it's always on the fly and can be seen , it's not rigdi like it was made out of plywood.


4. On Saturday you said you became aware of the other vessel when he was 2.5 miles away. Why not sooner? If you had been monitoring the radar at greater range you could have picked him up earlier and given yourself more time.

There was No more time....

5. If you had detected him earlier you could have used the radio much sooner. (I know that you reported that you had tried the radio and received no response, but he may well have been talking on another channel. By the time you used the radio it was too late to establish contact)

No, channel 16 was used by myself and Dover coastguard to make contact, even i called him on channel 6 8 and 11 ...

6. Was he AIS enabled?

Not fitted i'm led to believe, and should be as he is over 300 gt and on international voyages.

7. You could have used flares (aimed in the air not at the bridge!) or even smoke to alert him to your presence.

;-) , only smoke i carry are red and orange, and the last thing i want to get is a court action from the MCA for misuse of distress signals as there was no one in distress, also that would have made him get to me closer,,,, not a wise move.

8. You used your spotlight. How much more effective would it have been if you had been on a stable platform, shining it at the bridge for several minutes?

** he shoud or would have sen my light ,,,, my boat is a stable platform.. ***

9. You could have considered calling the Coastguard for help.

They heard for themselves, at Dover they know me well, and if i'm calling another vessel they normally do thier best to assist...

10. May day/Pan Pan?

For what , i don't understand ?

I'm sorry if all this sounds harsh and you may be correct that the other vessel was at fault. However, from what you have said I believe that you were, in part at least, also at fault. In my view the moment you decided to leave your position you set the whole sorry story in action.


We will see , the MAIB started the investigation on Monday morning ....
Joe

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Andy
 
Andy,

I didn't expect you to like my comments, but they are what I think and based on what you have said.

There's no point in discussing it further. MAIB will give us the answers.


Joe
 
1: Your replica of the 'A' Flag should be rigid and visible all round (Colregs)
2: Your vessel is obviously big enough to show the correct shapes of ball, diamond, ball, plus two balls on the side that the diving is taking place (Colregs)
3: You should, therefore be restricted in your ability to manoeuvre. In which case you should not have been trying to divert the other boat and should remained on station between the other vessel and your divers. Which obviously you did not, as you were, on you own description of events, placed behind the tug as it ran over your diver.

IMHO you abandoned your divers by moving off station.
I do NOT need diving qualifications to comment on this, just Seamanship.
 
The boat I regularly dive on has two rigid (aluminium) "A" flags set at right angles to each other - so can be seen all around. They are permanently attached to a sturdy pole that is put on top of the wheelhouse when divers are in the water, and taken in when divers are out of the water.
 
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