Displacement ballast?

[pelmetman]

Looking at trailer sailers specification I see the Displacement weight and the ballast weight.................my question is does the displacement figure include the ballast weight

Example:-Disp. 1257 lbs./ 570 kgs. Ballast: 331 lbs. / 150 kgs.

Is the weight 570 kgs or 620 kgs?

 

[lw395]

Yes!

 

[ProDave]

I would say the total weight is 570Kg, of which 150Kg is the ballast, so the rest of the boat must weigh 420Kg.

I thought you had started looking at water ballasted boats so you don't have to tow the ballast with you all the time?

 

[pelmetman]

I would say the total weight is 570Kg, of which 150Kg is the ballast, so the rest of the boat must weigh 420Kg.

I thought you had started looking at water ballasted boats so you don't have to tow the ballast with you all the time?

So the weights inclusive, that's what I thought but best to double check...

I did look at water ballasted boats Dave, and the Bay Cruiser looks a lovely boat...........BUT as we are retiring and will need most of our capital to earn a few pence interest.....I've another 13 years until my state pension kicks in...... unless they move the goal posts again

So spending 20k of it on a boat is a not something SWMBO would allow, she thinks I've already wasted 1000's on boats in the past....So I'll have what ever I get for the car and works van to spend on it, a couple of k at most

I do like pretty boats though and quite fancy a Y/M Senior, even asked a few boat builders about how much to get one built......seem's not much cheaper than a Bay Cruiser...........Hope fully I might get a bargain on Ebay to play with as a starter

 

[Seajet]

Displacement is total weight; divide it by the amount of ballast to get the all important 'ballast ratio'.

A figure of over 40% ballast is considered good, less than that on the dodgy side; blue water cruisers especially old school can get to 50%.

Beware water ballast, relatively ineffective as

A,water is a lot lighter for the space taken than cast iron or lead

B,water ballast tends to be inside the bilges of boats, so has very little leverage or 'righting moment'.

Are you really sure you want to trail sail, with all the problems ?

 

[boomerangben]

Quite right Seajet, but boat design is of course a list of compromises. If it's going on a trailer, metal ballast is a right royal PITA. I think if I was going to design a trailer sailer, I would specify sand bags or rocks for ballast that can be picked up and dropped off at the slipway. But it is interesting to note, that whilst water ballast is relatively inefficient, the Bay Raider and Cruiser are apparently self righting when the water ballast tanks are full. (I have no association with the builders).

True trailer sailers in my opinion have to be easy to tow and more importantly easy to launch and recover. As a result a trailer sailor is essentially a dinghy with a lid, so ballast ratios as applied to displacement cruisers are misleading.

 

[pelmetman]

Are you really sure you want to trail sail, with all the problems ?

...........What problems might I encounter apart from the expected........getting stuck up a narrow lane, trying to get up a steep hill, capsizing in a storm, running aground, falling overboard......

 

[Seajet]

...........What problems might I encounter apart from the expected........getting stuck up a narrow lane, trying to get up a steep hill, capsizing in a storm, running aground, falling overboard......

Lots !

For a start even with something like a RangeRover ( police have openly said they're targeting towed boats re weight limits etc ), realistically it restricts one to light 20' or less boats; and I'm a bit old fashioned about this, once the boat is afloat I'd rather like it to be stable and seaworthy which is dubious when one gets into the realms of things like water ballast for instance.

Problems trailer sailing;

It'll probably be a lift keeler, so how does one maintain the keel plate when it's retracted on the trailer at home

One has to tow it to the launch point, which will be determined by tide usually so the journey added on may make for an early start

You have to find a decent slipway, and these are not as common as one would think

When you get there everyone else has had the same idea if it's good weather

If you're able to launch in time for the tide having waited, now find somewhere safe to leave the boat while you park car and trailer

Find somewhere secure to park car & trailer

Get back to boat and raise mast, rig boat

Go for a sail with luck

If a 1 tide operation, back quick before the tide runs out

De-rig & mast down

Go and get car & trailer

Use machine gun to get on slipway again

Recover boat & secure

Drive straight to A&E with heart attack / stroke symptoms

If lucky drive home

Leave boat on trailer until next time, still unable to maintain keel, and having to be very security conscious re boat on trailer.

Also if dunking the trailer in salt water, immediately start saving up for a new one, if remotely possible don't dunk the hubs -brakes & bearings - , if you have to the advice is to wait & allow them to cool before dunking.

I don't know sailing areas near you Pelmetman, but a half tide mooring on mud and the boat left set up ready to go seems a lot more appealing to me, and they're generally available quite cheap.

 

[ProDave]

Excellent summary SeaJet, which is exactly why we only ever spent about 5 minutes thinking about trailer sailing our boat, and then found a permanent berth for her. The only thing I would change about your list, is we rig the mast while still on the trailer (something you can do while queueing)

And why I'm still making modifications to my boat trailer to allow the keel to be lowered on the trailer. Hopefully this time I've got it right and it will lower all the way (last attempt overlooked one thing and only allowed it to be lowered a little)

Put plenty of people do trailer sail, so I would never say it's a bad idea, just that my particular boat, although only 18ft 6 long, I regard as too large, too heavy and too time consuming to rig, to consider it a trailer sailor.

 

[pelmetman]

All of the above is valid if I was tied to weekends etc........... but I'll be towing it behind our camper and I'm paying particular attention to my Gross Train Weight, hence why I'm looking for something with an all up weight of 730 kgs max

Plus we will be retired so I'll be searching out campsites with slipways, where we'll stay for weeks possibly months, so hopefully will not have the traditional trailer sailing hassle

Anyone know any campsites with slipways in Europe? Especially Spain as we intend to over winter there.........either by lakes or the sea, but preferably within walking distance of a nice town...........don't want much do I

 

[wotayottie]

.So I'll have what ever I get for the car and works van to spend on it, a couple of k at most

Likely you'll have a lot more fun with it that we with more expensive boats. Incidentally, there are 15 older boats for sale on our notice board at the mo and I guess similar figures for other clubs. You can expect as lot of boat albeit older for 2k.

 

[pelmetman]

Likely you'll have a lot more fun with it that we with more expensive boats. Incidentally, there are 15 older boats for sale on our notice board at the mo and I guess similar figures for other clubs. You can expect as lot of boat albeit older for 2k.

That's what I'm hoping, although considering the kinda distance I'm hoping to travel I suspect the trailer will be as important as the boat

 

[ProDave]

Plus we will be retired so I'll be searching out campsites with slipways, where we'll stay for weeks possibly months, so hopefully will not have the traditional trailer sailing hassle

Anyone know any campsites with slipways in Europe? Especially Spain as we intend to over winter there.........either by lakes or the sea, but preferably within walking distance of a nice town...........don't want much do I

That's a better plan. I can point you to a campsite up near where I sail that doesn't have a slipway on the site, but there's one within a mile. you could launch the boat and then leave it at anchor just off the campsite and enjoy a few days sailing.

I'll let others recommend places on the continent.

 

[John the kiwi]

Water Ballasted Trailer sailers

Sure there are downsides to Trailer Sailers, but on the Other Hand

I have a 25ft water ballasted TS that i use a lot. Dry design weight of 850 kg with a further 500 Kg of water ballast.
Sure having a blob of depleted uranium on the end of your long keel is ideal, but stability is related to things like centre of mass and centre of bouyancy and a good design will have all the stability you need for coast and lake sailing. Probably less than ideal for winter north atlantic but.....
When there is a storm at night knocking boats around in the marina, i just rollover as my boat is outside the window safe and secure.
When i need to work on it i walk outside the house and run an extension lead from the shed.
No anti-fouling needed as longest period in water is 3 weeks.
I can pull boat off trailer onto lawn and roll onto side to extend keel for maintenance.
No marina fees, no liftout fees.
True that slipways can be a pain but patience is good. Actually my club slip is ideal as it has 2 sides with a floating jetty between- dont even get wet feet launching and retrieving.
Rig is optimised for quick set up and pack up.
Trailer hubs are designed for boat trailers with extra seals and although i routinely submerge mine in salt water, i have had to replace just one bearing set in 3 years - and it cost equivalent of 10 pounds and took me 20 minutes which is hardly a big deal.
Good luck with your search.

 

[William_H]

Trailer Sailers

Seajet is quite negative about TS. I have had my 21fter for 32 years now with no intention of changing. I do keep it on a swing mooring for the summer and bring it home for the winter. It takes less than an hour to tow the boat from home to actually sailing. It has about 220kgs of lead ballast but that has never been a problem and is definitely self righting.
Anyway for original poster. There was a design very popular in Oz in 80 called a Hartley TS 16. Richard Hartley a New Zealander produced designs for home building in ply wood a series of TS of 14ft 16ft 18ft and 21ft. They are double chine desiged for plywood. The interesting thing is that they did not have ballast, (except for the steel swing centre plate. Like a dinghy they relied on form stability. Very beamy. Being so light they could be made to plane easily and really fly in a blow. There was a fibreglass version made which would really suit your needs. I don't know if they ever got as far as UK. Probably worth a google. The TS 16 was the most popular. I did a big TS race in Victoria in early 80 where there was a whole division for TS16 ie about 100. I still see them around here occasionally. I owned an 18 for a short while in New Guinea and there is a 21 moored out from me. olewill

 

[Seajet]

Olewill,

yes I am negative about trailer sailing, I think it's one of those things which seems a good idea until one actually studies and / or sees what's involved; of course I'm talking about the crowded UK where any sunny weekend gets a reaction which makes D-Day look trivial !

Then again I'd say you're not trailer sailing yourself - using a mooring is far more intelligent - and your boat isn't a typical trailer sailer...

 

[treemendos]

50% Ballast ratio trailer sailer dinghy

I have just bought a Salterns 16'6" Tela which has a Ballast ratio of 50% so I have read . It's a copy of a Welsh Barry Seeker boat . These were smaller copies of the famous Bristol Pilot Cutters. The seeker boats plied for business with a pilot in the Bristol estuary even going out to sea up to ten miles offshore .Again only what I have read. As those waters are quite hazardous it bears testament to the sea worthiness of the design.
As the all up weight inc trailer is less than 750 kgs it would be an ideal candidate to tow behind your motor home. I sailed it last Sunday on Rutland water with a forecast 15mph wind gusting to 30mph.
In the real time it was more than both of those estimated figures especially during quite a few Squalls . The forecast was about three hours out of sink as it was supposed to be bright sunshine from 11 am. It didn't materialise till we had the boat off the water, then the sunmcamenout and the wind died to perfect conditions. Never mind the ale was nice as was the view from the balcony. The waves were very short between troughs although they were quite large as the wind came all the way down the lake from the west and then hit the Dam wall which must make the waves back up , unlike being being at sea. The wave tops were breaking on their back side so that indicated a force 5 min going to 6. Needless to say there was only one other Crusier out ,plus a lot of lasers with maybe 1/2 dozen rescue R.I.Bs.
My friend who accompanied me also owns an identical boat and has many Sea hours experience in this type of dinghy. I too have quite a few years as my beard is also white. Anyway it was only my third time sailing this day boat and I have to say with two reefs in the main it managed to sail ok just using the main. However we wanted to head up the lake and to do that needed more power. Unfurled the jib and away we went like an arrow , we shot off. The only moan would be it was a slightly wet ride as the freeboard is quite low. However it never once looked like we were in trouble or beyond our capabilities which made for a very enjoyable sail. Looking at how many Lasers were capsizing I was glad to be in our boat.
It handled very easily even in the gusts it was still well behaved and only once did I have to let the main out quickly. I must admit I did reroute the main sheet so it would not cleat in the jammer..I have owned and sailed quite a few different makes of small dingies / yachts but found this was by far the most comforting boat to sail in a blow apart from a Crabber 22' . However when you consider how much that cost and how much the Tela was ,there's no contest. The new engine for the crabber cost more than the Tela.
For anyone interested in buying a similar craft I sail most Thursday throughout the year and some even some Sunday's if my health permits me. Your would be most welcome to join my crew for a sail. I have no axe to grind with Collars who now own the build rights. They also build a slightly smaller 12' Dinghy built on the similar lines . Mine was bought second hand and I paid more for it than when it was new. The previous owner kept it for fourteen years and he made £1500 profit.
I think if you many to buy a boat that is in such demand , you pay a premium but it seems to keep that premium. A bit like Drascombe and Cornish Shrimper/ Crabber boats just to name a couple.
Happy Christmas to you all and I hope Boxing Day is good sailing weather as we normally enter a cruising boat race on Rutland Water where I hope this year we will beat our personal,best of second to last , last year. That was in a Cornish Crabber 24' with five people aboard and the wind was not strong enough to give us a fair crack.
So this year we may be in with a chance .
Thanks for viewing.
Geoff.

All of the above is valid if I was tied to weekends etc........... but I'll be towing it behind our camper and I'm paying particular attention to my Gross Train Weight, hence why I'm looking for something with an all up weight of 730 kgs max

Plus we will be retired so I'll be searching out campsites with slipways, where we'll stay for weeks possibly months, so hopefully will not have the traditional trailer sailing hassle

Anyone know any campsites with slipways in Europe? Especially Spain as we intend to over winter there.........either by lakes or the sea, but preferably within walking distance of a nice town...........don't want much do I