Dismasted? How old was your rig?

[JohnGC]

...........
Incidentally my insurer has not mentioned it during the last 11 years but like others i'm sure there would be a position if I had a rig failure , i'm with 'Y'

We are also insured with Y. The policy states that the boat must be suitably maintained but does not specify anything more than that.

So for the rig (something I don't have expertise in) it seems reasonable to have it inspected by professionals. I enquired about inspection with a local firm and was told that they would probably advise replacement at 10 years even if no problems where apparent - because that is what insurance companies require. A nice circle!

My rig is 12 years old. I could pay for an inspection which finds no visible problem but receive advice to change it anyway. If I then ignore that advice and the rig fails, my insurance company would have reasonable grounds to withhold or reduce the claim.

I might as well just replace the rigging without an inspection and save the money.

I can save more if I do all of the preparation and reinstatement work myself. Remove mast wiring, remove the boom ready for the mast to be removed. Drive the boat to the crane myself etc.

 

[vyv_cox]

There is no evidence at all that failure is time based. Provided the stresses are within the safe region and there is no serious corrosion the life of the rig should be indefinite. Thorough inspection carried out annually should identify any cause for concern. The ten year limit is purely based upon statistical data and says nothing about an individual rig.

 

[jakeroyd]

There is no evidence at all that failure is time based. Provided the stresses are within the safe region and there is no serious corrosion the life of the rig should be indefinite. Thorough inspection carried out annually should identify any cause for concern. The ten year limit is purely based upon statistical data and says nothing about an individual rig.

Interesting,
Another view , without considering insurance at all , is that the risk is all yours (and of course your crews) if you choose not to replace at an interval.
A bit like (going off topic a bit) your Volvo sterngland. Replacement is advised at 7 yrs but mine was replaced at 15 years and still with no leaks. sterngland failure of course although it could be serious is not like rig failure. The point I am considering is the 10 year figure is very far inside where the statistical population start to fail.

There is the other 'modern' consideration that views on this are part of the modern 'nothing can go wrong' syndrome of life , so they are playing on your fears a little.

 

[westhinder]

There is no evidence at all that failure is time based. Provided the stresses are within the safe region and there is no serious corrosion the life of the rig should be indefinite. Thorough inspection carried out annually should identify any cause for concern. The ten year limit is purely based upon statistical data and says nothing about an individual rig.

Sounds like the voice of reason to me.
Insurers on the continent also seem less paranoid than UK insurers. I have never heard of people replacing their standing rigging over here because their insurance insisted on it.
Incidentally, when the sailmaker was measuring up for new sails the other week, I mentioned my rig, which is 17 years old now and has logged over 20,000 miles. He also has a rigging business, so would have a business interest steering me towards replacement. He checked the terminals, considered the type of rig and the tension it was put under, judged it rather overdimensioned and saw no reason to replace.

 

[langstonelayabout]

The Wallet is a boat-killer. Well-known fact.

Wrong way around...

Boats are wallet killers. I'm confident that most here will agree

 

[johnalison]

Wrong way around...

Boats are wallet killers. I'm confident that most here will agree

Perhaps. That would then make the Wallet a wallet-killer.

 

[charles_reed]

Interesting discussion.
How much of a factor is rig design in all of this? You would assume that a lightweight multi-spreader deck-stepped rig on a racing boat would be far more vulnerable than... ooh say a moderately powered keel stepped masthead rig (like wot I got).

Or in other words, what are the chances I could lose a stay and not lose the rig?

(Incidentally, the only rig failure I have suffered to date was when a clevis pin worked out of the shroud on my Wayfarer. The mast bent alarmingly but we crash tacked and no damage was done, other than to our pride).

Well I've had four broken stays (including the forestay) and never actually lost the mast. However I did have a fatigue fracture of the keel-stepped mast - probably down to design deficiencies, which the insurers refused to replace, claiming that hardwood wedges were an improper means of locating the mast and should have been neoprene.
None of my insurers have ever demanded a 10 year rig-replacement, though an Open60 rigger I knew reckoned that once around the world or 16 years was the threshold for changing standing rigging. He also reckoned that fractional rigs, with bendy masts were far more at risk than old-fashioned, wide-spreader masthead rigs and rod rigging was an invention of the devil...
When my forestay failed this summer, I discovered that, in fact, my rigging though only 13 years old had done about 23Knm.
Insurers have asked, rather mildly, that I replace the rest of the standing rigging by September 2017.

 

[Neeves]

Our first rig failed, 'T' fitting on the forestay at 3 years. Our second rig came down within 12 months.

Subsequently the design of the forestay attachment was changed, rumour was it was a common problem and design related.

The yacht was used for racing, we did race hard.

Jonathan

 

[Heckler]

You inspired me to check my own insurance policy (GJW) as our boat is ten years old.

There's no mention of the age of the rigging. Is this unusual?

Does anyone know a ballpark cost in any case for replacement of standing rigging on a 39' Beneteau, and is it usual to replace the furling forestay in the same event?

I did my Bene 381, documented in PBO. Replaced the forestay and cap shrouds whilst the mast was down, the outstanding g issue was wear on the forestay at the top and bottom where the swivels contacted the wire. I stripped the Facnor relatively easily. The hardest part was getting the pins out of the lower spreaders, much heat and pullers required. The rest of the wires were inspected thoroughly and found ok. About 13 years old at the time. The wires? A couple of hundred each
Stu

 

[JohnGC]

There is a lot of interesting comment here. Thanks.

I asked another local rigging firm about age and failure yesterday. The chap in question has 30 years experience. He says they see a few failures and faults on rigging which is less than 15 years old. At 15 to 20 years the number of failures and faults increase significantly.

It must be true that the likelihood of a fault developing increases with time. Also the severity of an existing fault is likely to increase with time. But if the rig is inspected and repaired at intervals appropriate for its use, then age need not be the determining factor as Vyv states.

Those of us without appropriate skills or experience to self inspect must use someone who has those skills. For me at least that costs. I must balance the cost of annual inspection with on going renewal of parts as they are required with full replacement at 10 years plus.

There is no doubt in my mind that a programme of regular preventative maintenance is best. But at the moment I have a 12 year old boat with the original rigging. I have not owed the boat from new and I don't know is early history, so at this stage I plan to have all of the standing rigging replaced. After that, a plan of regular preventative maintenance seems the best way forward. That should protect my investment, spread the cost of replacement and satisfy (I hope) my insurance company. I will also give me more confidence in the rig.

My boat is an ETAP 32s. Fraction rig with swept back spreaders. By doing all of the preparation & reinstatement work myself (cables, boom etc) I'm expecting the cost be be well under £2k. I will also have better quality components than the original factory fit.

 

[Bathdave]

This is an opportunely-timed thread for me as I am wavering over standing rigging replacement on our Sourherly 115 from 2002

She has done only 12,000 miles and never been sailed hard by previous owner or us in the three years we have had her.

One of the local marine engineers ran some electrical impedance tests last summer, which he says are a good way to test for corrosion

Results did not show up any issues. Both he, and a couple of other people I have sought advice from, say that Southerlys of this vintage are over-engineered and pretty bullet proof, and they can't see any evidence from deck level of anything indicating.

The burning question of how long to push it for, and what arguments to muster for an insurer in the case of a failure, has been on my mind, which is why I am finding this thread helpful.

No one has mentioned electrical impedance tests - am I naive to be placing confidence in this?

 

[BabaYaga]

When I discussed this matter with an expert at sparsmaker Seldén he said that 20 000 miles sailed is a suitable limit, after which to replace. This presumes that the rig has been correctly tuned, which probably means tighter than many people think.
He also said that 1x19 wire never fails suddenly, without warning in the form of broken strands. Problem is that broken strands may be hidden inside a swaged fitting and will only be discovered by some bending of the wire (a good reason to unstep the mast from time to time). Another problem of course is a head sail furler which often makes inspection impossible.

 

[Frank Holden]

Speaking to my rigger in NZ, (Phil Ash, Gulf Harbour) ... he said ( I know-its getting a bit 'friend of a friend') that Selden now recommend that T-balls are not used on the lowers. Makes sense to me as the lowers are the hardest working part of the rig. Agree re the tightness.

Photos here of what I did.... Stbd lower had 2 broken strands... note the slightly 'untrue' lead on it.
2nd photo.... all the bits except the 'slug' we fitted in the mast... big bit of alloy that filled the holes left when we removed the backing plates.... it stood about 1mm proud either side and a had hole drilled through it to take the big bolt.
3rd photo.. all in place.... 'extenders' used so we could reuse the 3 year old wire after cutting off the swages.
All bits except the slug supplied by The RigShop, Southampton.... 2nd set they have sent out to Chile.

 

[Neeves]

This is all something of an issue where the owner is caught between the rock and hard place.

The insurance companies, or many of them will demand you replace the rigging at a specific time. The riggers know this - and if you ask for a rigging survey know why you are asking. They could do the survey blindfold because they know there is no comeback if they say you should replace your rigging. In fact they know that if your rig is 10-15 years old and you ask for a survey then they or a nearby rigger has another rig to replace, guranteed income.

Your rigging could be as sound as a bell, grossly over engineered - and they can still quite comfortably suggest, recommend - change the rigging.

Really if your insurance company demands a survey - forget it - just update the rigging or find a new insurer. The survey is a waste of money.

I note a few replies suggesting owners are going to replace the rigging themselves, take the rigging to a professiona and recognised supplier, have new rigging made to match re-install. This might be done piece by piece, with the mast left standing, or remove the mast - how do these DIYers obtain a certificate accepted by the insurer?

Jonathan

 

[alahol2]

I note a few replies suggesting owners are going to replace the rigging themselves, take the rigging to a professiona and recognised supplier, have new rigging made to match re-install. This might be done piece by piece, with the mast left standing, or remove the mast - how do these DIYers obtain a certificate accepted by the insurer?
Jonathan

That's precisely what I did. Mast down, as it is every year, remove the rigging and take it to a local company to get it all duplicated. I told the insurance company what I had done and offered to send a copy of the invoice for their perusal and records. They weren't interested. I've kept copies of the emails in case of future problems.

Someone up-thread mentioned 'routine maintenance'. Apart from cleaning and greasing the turnbuckles and a thorough inspection every year is there anything else one can do?

 

[Neeves]

And extending the comment on routine maintenance - someone seemed to be suggesting scheduled replacement of parts of rigging, to spread costs - I have a suspicion this would not satisfy an insurance company. Unless the installation is signed off the fact you have used reputable parts, and have all the invoices, does not seem to cut the mustard.

The problem is that if your mast falls down a few years after you have had it professionally installed no amount of documentation is going to make it any easier for you at 2am in a lumpy sea. You are totally reliant on the skill and integrity of the rigger - whereas you, the owner, might actually take more care than he does.

Jonathan

 

[vyv_cox]

Photos here of what I did.... Stbd lower had 2 broken strands... note the slightly 'untrue' lead on it.

There have been several design changes of T-balls. The one shown in the photo is relatively recent, showing the projected line through the swage passing through the contact point at the mast fitting. Older ones did not do this, the T-ball extended above the projected line. Presumably your mismatch is due to some similar discrepancy. Your current arrangement looks excellent, I may well go down that route myself.

 

[rogerthebodger]

Your new mast fittings is exactly how mine are done, not only on the lowers but all the side rigging except I fitted an anti crush tube inside the mast.

Mine is a mast head rig so for and back stays connect to mast head fitting.

 

[Caer Urfa]

I have done Pre Buying Inspection Visits on all sizes of Colvic Watsons for new buyers now for over 14 years and it's surprising just how many new buyers don't pay enough attention to rigging comments from the surveyors report which if the mast is stepped is usually just to head height so it goes low down on their 'to do' list of their new boat.

My experience shows many times there is no documentation aboard or the owner does not have any showing just how old the existing rigging is or when was installed, ‘Inspection of the rigging to head height level showed it to be in reasonable condition’ is usually the surveyors comment and true you can get a good idea checking terminals and wire etc at deck level but what about the rest.

Without documentation and taking the above into account however I can only assume the rigging has not been replaced for some years and 'could be' therefore up to 15 years old or older and
as we can all get caught out with the weather or even a heavy swell or in an F6 and above the last thing you want to worry about is your rigging ok.

However due to age alone this can lead to rigging failure without warning and although the sailing rig may have been lightly used and many times 'looks ok' the fatigue life is an unknown factor so it would be prudent to consider the life of such items as approximately 12/15 years maximum plus consideration should be given to the fact that the Chromium and Nickel content which makes stainless steel corrosion resistant also reduces ductility and raises the issue of fracture due to stress fatigue.

As I normally sail all year round in the Costa North Sea which lacks many things but wind is not one of them I personally replace all my SS rigging at 12 years old as part of the boats maintenance and halyards when I feel necessary as some wear faster than others.

Mike

 

[Moonbeam]

You inspired me to check my own insurance policy (GJW) as our boat is ten years old.

There's no mention of the age of the rigging. Is this unusual?

Does anyone know a ballpark cost in any case for replacement of standing rigging on a 39' Beneteau, and is it usual to replace the furling forestay in the same event?

We are currently with GJW and on the policy it states that we must have a full insurance survey prior to renewal in 2018. The last insurance survey was in 2011, but the last change of rigging was in 2008 (which is mentioned in the 2011 survey) so they seem to like the rigging surveyed at 10 years.