Disadvantages of short keel ?

[han34]

The specs look wrong to me, shows a beam of just over ten feet, that can't be right.
I would have thought the hull alone would be close to three feet without the keel.

 

[Jobs a good un]

Thanks all for replys to thread ,just found out it was in fact a typo ,should say 6 ft 5 "

 

[Norman_E]

Thanks all for replys to thread ,just found out it was in fact a typo ,should say 6 ft 5 "

That would make it the deep fin version. That boat was made with deep or shallow fin keels, the former was 1.95 metres, and the latter was 1.68 metres, respectively 6 feet 5 inches and 5 feet 6 inches. Bavaria boats of that age were generally quite well built. The question is how well has it stood up to intensive charter use?

 

[Birdseye]

Hi All

Been looking at a Bavaria 41 holiday with a 3 foot 6 inch keel , can anyone give me the lowdown on short keels with regard to sailing ability ,general performance etc

Regards

Mark

Simple. Keels are wings like on a plane. Gliders have long wings so that they lose less altitude for every horizontal mile flown. Jets have shorter wings relying on the engine to push them back upwards to compensate for the vertical loss they otherwise would suffer. With yachts the deeper the keel and the better the aerofoil shape, the less leeway they make. So a Volvo 65 ocean racer has a draft of near 16 foot. A Catalac which has no keel goes as fast sideways as forward. I exagerate but you get the idea.

ONly use of a long keel is sideways resistance when a boat is near stationary. Otherwise its aerofoil shape is dreadful.

 

[Mrnotming]

Hi Daydream Believer,
post no.7.The Marne route from le Havre obliged in 2003 May, our vessel draws 1.8M and fresh water draught was much the same as it was in the sea.No problems were encountered, save for needing a long plank to go ashore if not near a lock!Nominal depth is 2M on that route as designed.There is some soft mud on some stretches of the Canal Lateral a Garonne, but the boat just cuts France in two for a while.Grehan of this parish has all the gen as do VNF.fr

 

[han34]

The picture shown of this boat are at least two years old and maybe even older. Spec says teak deck replaced with paint in 2013. All pictures show a nice looking teak deck!.

 

[Birdseye]

Hi Daydream Believer,
post no.7.The Marne route from le Havre obliged in 2003 May, our vessel draws 1.8M and fresh water draught was much the same as it was in the sea.No problems were encountered, save for needing a long plank to go ashore if not near a lock!Nominal depth is 2M on that route as designed.There is some soft mud on some stretches of the Canal Lateral a Garonne, but the boat just cuts France in two for a while.Grehan of this parish has all the gen as do VNF.fr

Even if your boat was cylindrical (ie same cross section at keel bottom as water line) the increase draft would only be 5 cm. Of course the cross section at waterline is far greater so the increased draft is likely to be far less - say 3cm.

 

[snowleopard]

3'6'' seems very short for a 41 footer. My 24' Sadler draws 4'8''!

I've done a couple of thousand miles on an Island Packet 42 which drew 3'6". Very comfortable and stable boat that sailed like a brick.

 

[Babylon]

However with any fin or fixed keel I'd make very sure the boat could get through the French canals... a lift keeler may be the answer depending on the boat size and budget you are looking for.

I can't find where the OP said he actually wanted a short keel for specific reasons such as canals or drying-out.

ONly use of a long keel is sideways resistance when a boat is near stationary.

Best donate my old girl to a museum then.

 

[johnphilip]

http://www.williamsandsmithells.com/used-boat/?Make=Bavaria&Model=Holiday-41&BoatID=4403889

This is it

And if you download the brochure it shows:-General Information
Year: 1998
Builder: Bavaria
Designer: J & J Design
Hull Material: GRP
Number of Engines: 1
Engine Manufacturer: Volvo Penta
Engine Model: 2040D
Engine Year: 2003
Engine Fuel: Diesel
Total Power: 40
Beam: 13' 1"
Maximum Draft: 6' 6"

Or did they just revise the brochure after the enquiry?
Read every thing in an ad!

 

[KellysEye]

When we were chartering we sailed lots of Benneteaus, short keel and Jenneaus deep keel in relative terms. We quickly realised that the Jenneaus went upwind better but the Beneteaus went off wind better also helped by a wider stern. We chose the appropriate make for the winds we were expecting, the perfomance was the same in boat sizes from 32 feet to 50 feet. Clearly this means you need to own two boats

 

[Birdseye]

Best donate my old girl to a museum then.

Thats no way to treat your wife!

 

[Daydream believer]

Hi Daydream Believer,
post no.7.The Marne route from le Havre obliged in 2003 May, our vessel draws 1.8M and fresh water draught was much the same as it was in the sea.No problems were encountered, save for needing a long plank to go ashore if not near a lock!Nominal depth is 2M on that route as designed.There is some soft mud on some stretches of the Canal Lateral a Garonne, but the boat just cuts France in two for a while.Grehan of this parish has all the gen as do VNF.fr

That is interesting as the books I bought stated 1200 min depth. That was also a year of severe drought & the authorities stated 1200 as max safe draft ( according to internet at the time). however a boat owner I contacted said he had no problem at all with just over 1200 except his bilge keels hit the canal sides making it difficult to get ashor a couple of times.
I will follow it up as it could be fun just doing the canal & back. Although I might ask if it is actually worth it or is it all commercial?

 

[cliff]

I have the shallow fin version of the Sadler34, drawing 1.4 metres. I sometimes think that our leeway is rather more than I would like when in a seaway but when we are in company I find that nobody outpoints us to any great extent.

Snap - pretty stable, points well and gets in places other can not.

 

[Concerto]

And if you download the brochure it shows:-General Information
Year: 1998
Builder: Bavaria
Designer: J & J Design
Hull Material: GRP
Number of Engines: 1
Engine Manufacturer: Volvo Penta
Engine Model: 2040D
Engine Year: 2003
Engine Fuel: Diesel
Total Power: 40
Beam: 13' 1"
Maximum Draft: 6' 6"

Or did they just revise the brochure after the enquiry?
Read every thing in an ad!

Is that right the engine has been replaced after just 5 years. Is that poor maintenance or just bad luck to have that happen. Or is that another typo?

 

[Skylark]

Things went from bad to worse...................
Just north of La Rochelle she got on a plane & b..gg..d off home saying " I hate you & I hate your B boat""
that is where I learned to sail single handed -- & you know what?? it is miles better

Brilliant post! Resonates with me, too

 

[haydude]

I used to have what is called a shoal keel, 1.45m draft and I was very satisfied with the overall yacht performance. Then I sold this yacht and I bought one with 2.3m deep fin keel, no bulb, only 3 tons of lead. I did not expect to notice the difference given that I do not race, but I did, and to a really great extent.

Now I can safely sail upwind and take 2 hours only to reach places it generally took between 4 and 6 hours (or I had to give up going there under sail). Initially I thought it was just lucky conditions of wind and tide, but given that I sail very often the same route, with very similar wind conditions, what I thought it was "lucky" has now become the statistic.

In a nutshell if you want to go more places and you do not mind motor-sailing upwind to get there, you want a shoal keel, if instead you enjoy more sailing then a shoal keel in the long will be frustrating and a deep fin keel is best for you.

 

[Bikerwookie]

Handicap ratings tell part of the story - 15 seconds per mile for shoal draft. Have raced a shoal draft 33' boat for the last two years around 60 races per year. Points to 33 degrees apparent before vmg drops off so comparable with any similar standard draft yacht. We win races if we get our act together loose them if we don't. Have averaged 8.3 knots over 17hrs with only three up.

There are things we have done that make far more difference then the 15s/mile. Clean bottom, rig tension, sail adjustments etc.

Stability is identical but weight in keel is 550kg more than standard draft.

What Im saying is if you need the shoal draft it is not the end of the world and the loses can be made up for with other tweaks. However the deeper the draft the better from a performance point of view (however marginal) .

 

[Birdseye]

Its not rational to say " if you need the shoal draft it is not the end of the world and the loses can be made up for with other tweaks" because any tweeks applied to a shallow draft boat can be applied to a deep draft one. The reality is that you lose to windward through more leeway in a shallow draft boat though you lose less the further you get off the wind and might even gain a little downwind through less drag.

I found in racing that the difference is between 5% and 10% in time between shallow and deep depending on design.

 

[GrahamM376]

I have the shallow fin version of the Sadler34, drawing 1.4 metres. I sometimes think that our leeway is rather more than I would like when in a seaway but when we are in company I find that nobody outpoints us to any great extent.

That's what I've found. We have a shallow draught Scheel keel and no noticeable difference between us and an identical boat but with deeper keel when crossing Biscay.

Much depends on the type of keel, high aspect keels with little forefoot in the water can't sail hard on the wind in strong wind conditions, compared to a longer keel and more wet area. Some years ago, we raced our old 346 twin keeler against a couple of Jeanneau 352s, mostly F8 gusting into F9 at times. They couldn't get near us in those conditions, we could steer much closer to the wind on the long outward leg and they never made it up. In theory most would have put their money on them and, had it been lighter winds and more down wind, then we wouldn't have stood a chance.