Disadvantages of a shoal draft

[Monique]

From actual observation...

Headed west beating into considerable swell/wind, we passed a larger Contest like he was dragging his anchor.

He has a shoal keel and mine has a deep keel. He tacked twice as often as I did and had considerable leeward motion. As Seajet was saying, the surface layer was in movement and my keel was in stable water...

Depends entirely on what you wish to do with your boat... ocean passages = deep keel. Coastal hopping = shoal keel.

In my humble opinion of course. GL with your purchase.

 

[Little Rascal]

Only by reason of opportunity...

Or guts you mean!

 

[Seajet]

Or guts you mean!

No disrespect to the chap you're referring to, I haven't read up his exploits; but I have often found in life that when one studies or even meets ones' heroes, 'courage' seems awfully like 'Complete lack of imagination' !

 

[DownWest]

SJ, that is an odd comment.
If I met Blondie Hasler (no chance now) I doubt that would be my reaction. The few that I have actually met with heroic status, came across as normal guys who needed to do something important at the moment in time. It was not lack of immagination, just what was the right thing. Often with no choice.

 

[Seajet]

DownWest,

I understand what you mean, and no-one could doubt Blondie Hasler's courage !

I did wonder about his advising his chum the then Lord Mayor of London, Sir Kenneth Cork, to put junk rig on his Anderson 22, as the boat is easily handled and this crucified her performance ( she was converted back to standard Bermudan rig later ) - but he was a fan of junk rig, just as I'm a fan of Andersons.

Some of my heroes I'm happy to say I worked with and am in contact with, but other people I looked up to have proven to be a little glazed over with the 'thousand yard stare', and went to their deaths - sometimes leading others - needlessly.

Still, some say the definition of a hero is that they must be a tragic one, with a fault somewhere hidden away; haven't we all ?!

( My fault is that I'm a jet-setting international playboy handy with a gun and besieged by gorgeous tottie all the time, while I really just want to be a quiet writer and wish they wouldn't keep pestering me ).

So, back to shoal draught !

One design feature I'm not a fan of is a 'wing' keel, especially allied to twin rudders.

The wings on the keel are supposed to have a pitch damping effect, and keep the mass low.

Well they manage the latter, but unless the boat is drying out on a billiard table with no waves or wind may well tip the boat right on her ear liable to flooding, also very good at collecting weed etc.

Twin rudders are to me an abomination mainly caused by modern demand for a lard-arsed boat with treble aft cabins, which would prise a normal rudder out of the water; maybe OK on a Southern Ocean racer, but like putting a carbon fibre gearknob on a Ford Anglia it doesn't pay to emulate hard core racing designs.

The idea of the rudders taking the splaying loads of a boat drying out then lifting from mud twice a day all season is buttock-clenching, a lot of twin keel boats with cast iron keels fully bolted have problems with the loads !

Also subject to linkage wear, dodgy 'tracing' set-up', and with a single keel the rudders become vulnerable to flotsam etc ( though the same could be said of twin keels & single rudder, except the prop' gives protection ).

Also it neatly keeps the rudders away from useful prop-wash for manouvering under power in tight spaces.

 

[chrisedwards]

DownWest,

I understand what you mean, and no-one could doubt Blondie Hasler's courage !

I did wonder about his advising his chum the then Lord Mayor of London, Sir Kenneth Cork, to put junk rig on his Anderson 22, as the boat is easily handled and this crucified her performance ( she was converted back to standard Bermudan rig later ) - but he was a fan of junk rig, just as I'm a fan of Andersons.

Some of my heroes I'm happy to say I worked with and am in contact with, but other people I looked up to have proven to be a little glazed over with the 'thousand yard stare', and went to their deaths - sometimes leading others - needlessly.

Still, some say the definition of a hero is that they must be a tragic one, with a fault somewhere hidden away; haven't we all ?!

( My fault is that I'm a jet-setting international playboy handy with a gun and besieged by gorgeous tottie all the time, while I really just want to be a quiet writer and wish they wouldn't keep pestering me ).

So, back to shoal draught !

One design feature I'm not a fan of is a 'wing' keel, especially allied to twin rudders.

The wings on the keel are supposed to have a pitch damping effect, and keep the mass low.

Well they manage the latter, but unless the boat is drying out on a billiard table with no waves or wind may well tip the boat right on her ear liable to flooding, also very good at collecting weed etc.

Twin rudders are to me an abomination mainly caused by modern demand for a lard-arsed boat with treble aft cabins, which would prise a normal rudder out of the water; maybe OK on a Southern Ocean racer, but like putting a carbon fibre gearknob on a Ford Anglia it doesn't pay to emulate hard core racing designs.

The idea of the rudders taking the splaying loads of a boat drying out then lifting from mud twice a day all season is buttock-clenching, a lot of twin keel boats with cast iron keels fully bolted have problems with the loads !

Also subject to linkage wear, dodgy 'tracing' set-up', and with a single keel the rudders become vulnerable to flotsam etc ( though the same could be said of twin keels & single rudder, except the prop' gives protection ).

Also it neatly keeps the rudders away from useful prop-wash for manouvering under power in tight spaces.

re junk rig - must have been a poor conversion - pity - I believe the Anderson would sail very welll indeed with a junk sail

 

[planteater]

re junk rig - must have been a poor conversion - pity - I believe the Anderson would sail very welll indeed with a junk sail

I agree. Conversion to junk rig usually involves fitting a keeled stepped mast well forward of it's Bermudan equivalent. It seems unlikely that somebody would do this and then change it back, especially on a 22'er. Easier and cheaper just to flog it buy another one.

 

[mcframe]

As I recall the shoal draft boat makes compromises in the pointing ability of the boat by a couple of degrees. You also have to reduce your sail area a little sooner.

Anything else?

It'll fall over if you run it up the beach at Bembridge ;-)

 

[Seajet]

Junk rigged Anderson 22

I agree. Conversion to junk rig usually involves fitting a keeled stepped mast well forward of it's Bermudan equivalent. It seems unlikely that somebody would do this and then change it back, especially on a 22'er. Easier and cheaper just to flog it buy another one.

I confess I've never sailed a junk rig, so will try to avoid my distinct cynicism !

The boat in question was ordered new by Sir Kenneth Cork, then Lord Mayor of London, with junk rig - as mentioned, through deck and I'm pretty sure further forward than the standard bermudan - and a BMW inboard, she was not a cheap boat !

The next owner converted 'Rumrun' to standard rig, and she is still going strong.

One of the reasons I'm doubtful whether junk rig was ever justified is that the standard rig is very manageable even singlehanded, it could be said the design is a touch under-canvassed, though changing that would probably upset what is a very well balanced design.

The 3 A22's which raced across the Atlantic in 1978-9 had slightly increased sail areas with masthead rather than 7/8's rigs, even so Bob Salmon reported sailing most of the way with the keel up in the trade winds.

I could just about believe junk rig is ( even ) more user-friendly, but would be amazed if it performed as well; would love to have sailed alongside for a comparison test !

 

[chrisedwards]

I confess I've never sailed a junk rig, so will try to avoid my distinct cynicism !

The boat in question was ordered new by Sir Kenneth Cork, then Lord Mayor of London, with junk rig - as mentioned, through deck and I'm pretty sure further forward than the standard bermudan - and a BMW inboard, she was not a cheap boat !

The next owner converted 'Rumrun' to standard rig, and she is still going strong.

One of the reasons I'm doubtful whether junk rig was ever justified is that the standard rig is very manageable even singlehanded, it could be said the design is a touch under-canvassed, though changing that would probably upset what is a very well balanced design.

The 3 A22's which raced across the Atlantic in 1978-9 had slightly increased sail areas with masthead rather than 7/8's rigs, even so Bob Salmon reported sailing most of the way with the keel up in the trade winds.

I could just about believe junk rig is ( even ) more user-friendly, but would be amazed if it performed as well; would love to have sailed alongside for a comparison test !

Sorry about the thread drift but throwaway comments by those who admit having no knowledge/experience can be so harmful. Just look at the variables - a junk rig with an inboard diesel - on a lightweight 22' boat.-drag and weight! Jerome Fitzgerald talks about substantial loss of speed and 10 degrees poorer pointing as a result of carrying an inboard.

The fact that she was a good conversion has not been established.

Finally - how about geting some knowledge/experience - go on a junk rig rally and stand by to be amazed by your unfounded cynicsm.

 

[charles_reed]

As I recall the shoal draft boat makes compromises in the pointing ability of the boat by a couple of degrees. You also have to reduce your sail area a little sooner.

Anything else?


Many thanks.

You are partially right - it depends on how the shoal draft is achieved.

Bilge-keels and shoal keels, definitely.
Centre-boards, probably.
Lift-keels, certainly not.

 

[Seajet]

10 degrees ?

Sorry about the thread drift but throwaway comments by those who admit having no knowledge/experience can be so harmful. Just look at the variables - a junk rig with an inboard diesel - on a lightweight 22' boat.-drag and weight! Jerome Fitzgerald talks about substantial loss of speed and 10 degrees poorer pointing as a result of carrying an inboard.

The fact that she was a good conversion has not been established.

Finally - how about geting some knowledge/experience - go on a junk rig rally and stand by to be amazed by your unfounded cynicsm.

I don't need to be amazed by my personal cynicism, I'm used to it !

While not experienced with junk rig, I am experienced with racing sailing boats for the last 39 years and have a little knowledge of aero & hydro dynamics; show me a junk which is there for performance, not just ease of handling; I haven't seen many junk rigged racing dinghies ( inc' development classes ) or ocean racers other than singlehanders.

I agree to an extent that the Anderson doesn't like the weight and loss of stowage space of an inboard, but the BMW engine in question is relatively light, and the A22 is not an especially lightweight design at a quoted dry 2,500lbs.

I am not familiar with Jerome Fitzgerald as an Anderson owner, and have trouble with this quote re. any boat; yes reduced speed will give a bit less keel lift, but the speed reduction is minimal, I have sailed against such A22's and it still all comes down to crew skill, sail shape etc.

Pointing is much more a function of rig and underwater profile than weight, I'd love to know how having an inboard - much less weight penalty in this case than say carrying one more crew - causes 10 degrees less to windward !

Rumrun's original owner was as stated a friend of Blondie Hasler and she was almost a 'money no object' project ( the A22 was always relatively expensive to start with ), so one would expect the junk conversion to have been properly thought out.

I haven't any photo's but will ask if any are around - I suspect not or I'd have seen them before, have run the owners association for about 10 years and owned one since 1977, saw Rumrun being built - sadly Sir Kenneth is no longer with us but I'll ask present & past other owners.

 

[chrisedwards]

I don't need to be amazed by my personal cynicism, I'm used to it !

While not experienced with junk rig, I am experienced with racing sailing boats for the last 39 years and have a little knowledge of aero & hydro dynamics; show me a junk which is there for performance, not just ease of handling; I haven't seen many junk rigged racing dinghies ( inc' development classes ) or ocean racers other than singlehanders.

I agree to an extent that the Anderson doesn't like the weight and loss of stowage space of an inboard, but the BMW engine in question is relatively light, and the A22 is not an especially lightweight design at a quoted dry 2,500lbs.

I am not familiar with Jerome Fitzgerald as an Anderson owner, and have trouble with this quote re. any boat; yes reduced speed will give a bit less keel lift, but the speed reduction is minimal, I have sailed against such A22's and it still all comes down to crew skill, sail shape etc.

Pointing is much more a function of rig and underwater profile than weight, I'd love to know how having an inboard - much less weight penalty in this case than say carrying one more crew - causes 10 degrees less to windward !

Rumrun's original owner was as stated a friend of Blondie Hasler and she was almost a 'money no object' project ( the A22 was always relatively expensive to start with ), so one would expect the junk conversion to have been properly thought out.

I haven't any photo's but will ask if any are around - I suspect not or I'd have seen them before, have run the owners association for about 10 years and owned one since 1977, saw Rumrun being built - sadly Sir Kenneth is no longer with us but I'll ask present & past other owners.

thanks for this - I would really like to see the conversion to pass comment. It sounds like it was done a while ago - before the advent of the latest generation of junk sails - like the one I crewed on in the 2010 RTI wher we beat so many "faster" boats.

There is a direct correlation between pointing ability and drag - relative wind and all that- so the Anderson with a prop and shaft will be at a significant disadvantage over the huge majority which sport tilted up outboards. Look at the arguments put across by folding prop marketers.

It is such an unfair argument to say that because the junk rig is not used for racing boats then it is not fast - this is an ordinary person's forum - with everyday boats. The RTI race I referred to above is surely more relevant - it applies to our class not the big boys who finished in four hours. Our junk rig boat trounced so many others - why? Blondie Hasler couldn't understand why families sailed any other rig apart from junk.

In my opinion junk rig is not suitable for dinghies.

I'm sure you do have knowledge of aero and hydro dynamics but specific knowledge of the many ways junks achieve camber? - and experience of sailing each? Group Captain Bunny Smith - famous for wartime bombing exploits - pioneered one form - the Fenix rig - and very fast that was too - he spend decades developing this - all sorts of theories which you probably would be familier with and I do not understand.

If you are in the Solent area you are very welcome to sail on my boat. We can take on a few locals.

Massive apology to forumites for thread drift

 

[Seajet]

Hello Chris, as you say apologies to other forumites for thread drift, as it turns out we could have made a whole thread about this.

There were roughly half a dozen inboard equipped Anderson 22’s, I must say they never appealed to me ( partly because the most commonly used engine was the Dolphin 2-stroke which required stopping then restarting the other way to get reverse gear, I think that might strain my sense of humour in tight marinas !

Most A22’s lift the engine out of the well completely when not in use – they can’t tilt up - , one then fits a fairing plug; so yes, an inboard with a shaft & P bracket will be a little more drag, I expect inboard fans will say the weight even if greater was more amidships ( the original design had a water tank there anyway though most people do without now) , and a folding prop need not be much of a drawback.

I would love to take you up on a sail ( I try sailing every different design I can get my hands on ), or hopefully maybe we could bring both boats along, but please see my PM.

Re. Modern junk rigs I imagine there’s more camber control; one of the things which puts me off junk rig is the lack of bits of string to play with, as I’m an inveterate ‘tweaker’.

I don’t remember the conditions of the 2010 RTIR, I’d be interested to hear about it; PM on the way as I say.

Andy