Dinghy spinnaker foredeck tube...any hints?

[ShinyShoe]

Make a pentagon from 22mm water pipe and appropriate angled joints. Attach a sleve of fabric. Attach to foredeck.

Mine for a sealed front tank Heron is sadly still in design concept. I saw one online for a ?laser-II can't find it right now...

 

[skua164]

Rather than something moulded, why not a simple ring at the bow which your line from the downhaul patch runs through. You can attach a sock easily enough to that or if your Halyard and Downhaul are long enough you can pull the entire sail back into the cockpit and just launch / retrieve through the ring.

Same set up as a Hawk 20 basically.

 

[Greenheart]

All your suggestions appreciated once again, gentlemen.

I still take the view that a moulded chute will avert snags, even if it adds weight and constructional complexity. The fact that I'll be singlehanding will mean that anything snagging anywhere on the inside or outside of an improvised chute-opening, may cause a serious problem, or just prevent hoisting.

My non-racing status also means I'm reluctant to set up a functional but ugly system sitting above the foredeck, if it could be recessed.

It also occurred to me that a chute made from large-diameter soil-pipe could be led under the foredeck and back to the forward cockpit bulwark, to double-up as an anchor-warp tube! Perhaps not for use at the same time as the spinnaker is occupying it.

I love the snuffer idea. Oddly enough I suggested that it might be an answer in a similar thread one year ago...the reply came, from a forumite I respect, "...a snuffer? On a dinghy??". Still, after the effortless control I've gained from being able to roll away my genoa without having to drop it, the idea of 'socking' the spinnaker without having to tidy away the lines and the sailcloth, appeals too.

But I speak in deep ignorance, having only seen snuffers in use by expert hands, and not singlehanded aboard an unballasted boat.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

surely the snag with a snuffer is that it leaves the weight & windage up high, before you wrestle the thing into submission ?

The trick will probably be to get the kite down quickly, at least as much as in crewed racing if you're the only ballast ?

I'd still be bothered by the invitation for waves to go down a moulded chute, I'd think a right pain when cruising with kit stowed in the boat; I wonder if you could rig a small cover, sailcoth or something would do as it's more of a deflector than waterproof, elasticated open & a light line to pull it over the aperture ?

 

[Greenheart]

Some sort of cover is what I had in mind, thanks Andy. I'm unlikely to want the spinnaker if the waves are big enough to land on the foredeck! But the advantage of a solid plastic tube under the foredeck (rather than a bag or netting, which I've seen) would be that any water coming down the chute will end up in the cockpit, from where the self-bailers would deal with it quickly enough.

I can see a snuffer working (assuming it isn't just another line to snag) if it isn't a bulky or weighty arrangement. And assuming such a thing exists for a small spinnaker.

 

[adwuk]

The reason I suggested a snuffer was because the main of the Osprey use was single handing (do you use the trapeze?). Even a chute requires two people, unless you want to run over the kite every time. I race a flying fifteen, and use a chute. For a clean drop, ensuring that you don't run over sheets or the kite itself, you need two people. The crew stretches the foot by pulling on the sheet and guy, while the helm feeds out the halyard and pulls on the downhaul. When the middle of the kite is well into the chute, the sheet and guy can be released for the rest of the drop.
Our chute is in front of the forestay - the same for an old merlin I used to sail. I haven't had any experience with a chute that is behind the forestay, so don't know if that makes much, if any, of a difference.
A tubed dinghy kite is actually quite a small thing, so I don't imagine the windage would be great - and I thought that the snuffer would be used to tame the sail before dropping it at a later date. Obviously it won't comply with class rules, but I was left with the impression that this isn't an issue.

 

[Greenheart]

Quite right Adwuk, I laugh at the rules. And I don't mind which system I employ, if it works.

My singlehanded use of the Osprey late this summer was coming along in big steps, but I didn't quite get into the trapeze. I shall, early next season, with a mate on hand to assist when it all goes wrong.

Although, I should stress that it isn't my intention to test my luck by flying the spinnaker when there's enough breeze to heel much - I'm mainly thinking it is another benefit to discover, in the experience of the lightweight singlehander of two/three man boats...

...I'm already accustomed to the boat going much faster than I'd expect her to, in very light conditions. That must be related to my weighing less than 70kg, despite her designer's expectation that the human ballast would top 200kg...

...but still, dead-downwind when there's not much breeze, I'd be glad of extra sail, so it's a matter of mastering the spinnaker, by whichever means that is most easily done. The snuffer sounds like a smart solution to me...is it something I can sew-up myself, with patience and the right materials?

 

[adwuk]

Absolutely, make it yourself - a snuffer is nothing more than a long sock/tube of light material which you pull down over the kite, and a dinghy kite in light winds is an easily tamed thing. You secure the top of it to the spinnaker halyard and have a metal ring around the bottom which is large enough to encompass the bunched up spinnaker foot. Then all you need is a uphaul and downhaul system (I'd suggest a continuous line) for the snuffer. Ensure that the block for the snuffer uphaul is attached to the spinnaker halyard so that you can drop the sail onto the foredeck still contained.

 

[Greenheart]

Fantastic, thanks Adwuk. That sounds vastly preferable to wholesale modification of my foredeck.

I'll post photos of my progress. :encouragement:

 

[Seajet]

Dan, for handling the kite, whichever way you do it, how about modifying the endless up / down halliard - downhaul from the usual aft end of the centreboard case to near the mast foot ?

That would probably give more pull, and more importantly you'd be central and able to sort out the pole at the same time ?

Assuming a ' tiller tamer ' type arrangement holding the tiller - don't know if you have something like this already but should be possible to add lateral shackles etc to the spin sheet blocks beside the aft deck.

On my A22 I use a line athwartships between the aft mooring cleats, with 2 turns around the tiller about halfway along its length; works well for short periods though I keep promising her a proper Tiller Tamer.

With 12 volts on tap I just use the autohelm, often in fixed manual mode and nudge the +/- buttons.

 

[Greenheart]

Sound thinking, thank you Andy. To be honest, the aft end of my centreboard case is already quite cluttered, since everything I felt able to redirect there already has a space - centreboard downhaul, genoa furler, toe straps adjustment...and the vang & centreboard lift are on the thwart too. But I'd like to think the kite can be dealt with without going forward...but I'll have to anyway, to trapeze.

I've got a remote steering system too, if you can believe it - blocks bolted to the rear cockpit bulkhead corners, carrying a hook & line through fairleads, to bungees at the forward end of the cockpit, so I can steer from the the mast if necessary. It's better than nothing.

All I need is a few weekends in a warm dry shed, to do the many jobs to complete the boat to my idea of ultimate specification.

Funny...I'm as excited thinking about the Osprey now, as in the week I bought her nearly three years ago. Interesting thing, I never look at smaller, simpler dinghies with more than momentary interest. I can't easily understand why most singlehanded racing designs are una-rigged...there's so much more versatility and interest in a sailplan which requires some decisions and offers choices.

 

[Seajet]

' Toe Strap Adjustment on the go ' ?

Next you'll be telling us you have heated massage trapeze harnesses !

Not the same in my days, Harumph...

 

[Greenheart]

Gonna copy the up-down self-bailer control line in my mate's Europe, too. I'm sure I'll find space.

 

[Greenheart]

I've had a long look at the fairly recent thread "Are snuffers the work of the devil" or something like that...

...not terribly encouraging! Amazing how varied the views are, and what is or isn't regarded as daunting. There was lots of mild-mannered bragging, padding-out the useful information, but I subsequently wondered if I'll do best by just trying the spinnaker right out of the bag, before making my mind up how best to facilitate handling it.

It had seemed to me that a snuffer is an obvious benefit, shorthanded, but to read some of the old salts' posts there, it sounds as if hoisting & dousing the spinnaker should be no more trouble than pulling out a hanky, and that anyone fitting a snuffer must be incapable.

I s'pose I should remember that, rare amongst contributors here, I'm talking about an unballasted boat, as well as doing it all singlehanded.

 

[Seajet]

Dan,

that's what I was alluding to; if I were doing it again now ( must be 20 years + since the last time I'm horrified to realise ! ) I'd still let the sheet fly and let the thing turn into a high drag flag, while getting it down Pronto.

Like you, I am probably one of few here who has actually set a kite solo on Scorpion & Osprey dinghies.

I never contemplated a snuffer, I wanted the sail either up and drawing or stowed, with as little time as poss in between !

 

[Greenheart]

Thanks Andy. I look forward to being as competent handling my Osp under all sail, as you were aboard yours.

I doubt I've ever felt more alive than while singlehanding the boat under full main & genoa, in a little more wind than was wise, overtaking waves and watching the trough ahead disappearing as if it was below the bonnet of a big car overhanging a cliff...then feeling the boat lunge rapidly forward, dipping the bow and surfing before recovering to climb the next wave. Great stuff...

...but I've been wary too, rolling up the genoa briskly if I thought I might be overpowered, and I've felt glad it can be so quickly done...

...so the fact that the spinnaker is much bigger than both main and genoa together, leads me to think that any rapid way of putting that wayward power back in its box, may be needed pretty urgently when I'm out there! Hence my chute/snuffer questions...

...because presumably either system enables the process of hoisting/opening the kite's area, to be promptly reversed, not by careful and attentive effort (which I'll likely need for other things) but simply by releasing a couple of lines, and sharply pulling a third.

Nice idea, that by starting in a force one, I can develop accomplished, gadget-free hoisting and handing of my spinnaker, and eventually do the same thing safely and successfully in a force three; but the rest of the boat requires all my wits in a force three...

...so a snuffer (despite widespread dislike), seems to be like my mainsail reef and roller genoa - a singlehanding essential. Not so?

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

Thanks Andy. I look forward to being as competent handling my Osp under all sail, as you were aboard yours.

I doubt I've ever felt more alive than while singlehanding the boat under full main & genoa, in a little more wind than was wise, overtaking waves and watching the trough ahead disappearing as if it was below the bonnet of a big car overhanging a cliff...then feeling the boat lunge rapidly forward, dipping the bow and surfing before recovering to climb the next wave. Great stuff...

...but I've been wary too, rolling up the genoa briskly if I thought I might be overpowered, and I've felt glad it can be so quickly done...

...so the fact that the spinnaker is much bigger than both main and genoa together, leads me to think that any rapid way of putting that wayward power back in its box, may seem pretty urgent when I'm out there! Hence my chute/snuffer questions...

...because presumably either system enables the process of hoisting/opening the kite's area, to be promptly reversed, not by careful and attentive effort (which I'll likely need for other things) but simply by releasing one or two lines, and sharply pulling a third.

Nice idea, that by starting in a force one, I can develop accomplished, gadget-free hoisting and handing of my spinnaker, and eventually do the same thing safely and successfully in a force three; but the rest of the boat requires all my wits in a force three...

...so a snuffer (despite widespread dislike), seems to be like my mainsail reef and roller genoa - a singlehanding essential. Not so?

If you dont have a chute i'd just keep it simple. Don't launch it when its too windy. Use a flyaway pole and bags. To dump it bear away, let go the guy and pull it down to the bag using the sheet. use an elastic recoil on a 2:1 pully on the halyard end to recoil the slack. It wont fill with only two lines pulling and you can drag it down into the bag and stuff it in. you can make most of it and use cheap fittings

 

[mrming]

Looking at the size of the Osprey kite, a snuffer seems like madness.

Once you blow the guy the kite becomes a harmless flag. The only danger then is that when you release the halyard the kite might end up in the water before you have time to retrieve it.

Some dinghies have a continuous halyard / retrieval line to make this easier. You'd then naturally control the drop as you retrieve. I'd rather pull it into a chute of some kind as you originally suggested, but it would also be easy enough to stuff it into a bag.

 

[Greenheart]

If you don't have a chute I'd just keep it simple.

Looking at the size of the Osprey kite, a snuffer seems like madness. Once you blow the guy the kite becomes a harmless flag.

It's very funny, because everyone is being very helpful, but the truth is that I scarcely understand the simplest terms relating to the spinnaker. I really must have a try at rigging it and familiarising myself with the lines and hardware on shore, before I ask any more!

I'm most grateful for the opinions though. I'll be sure to review everything that's been said, when I've tried hoisting the sail.

Interestingly I found the following quote on the "Go Sail" website, specifically about the Osprey:

"...off-wind speed is generated by the large spinnaker emerging from the ‘chute. Spinnaker bags are a rare sight due to the generous freeboard provided in the original design. This makes the intake of water so minimal as to render bags an inconvenience compared to the speed of a ‘chute..."

...so maybe I'll end up back where I started, looking at a chute. I won't mind the work or the cost of buying and fitting it - assuming it really is the slickest way to handle hoisting & lowering the spinnaker for one man alone, with little time available to attend to it.

Making good progress downwind in a light force two in October, I was pursued for a short distance by a Musto Skiff. Perhaps he meant to show me how quick his lighter boat was, although the conditions weren't enough to get him planing, and steering my very broad reach won't have done him any favours...

...still, he gained a fair bit, before quitting and steering an angle that suited the asymmetric. Given my lightness in the Osprey, and the benefit of a conventional spinnaker for sailing almost DDW, I'm hoping we'll meet again when I've learned to control mine.

Neat little craft, and he seemed able to get his kite up and down with no fuss at all - a few seconds and it was up and drawing, and as quickly it was lowered out of sight again.

On the other hand, I didn't envy him much...in spite of not catching me, he couldn't relax and sit down, and he certainly didn't have a hand free to take photos as I did. No exaggeration, I was reclining on the floor, smoking a Havana and steering with my knee!

 

[prv]

I've come late to this thread - but if you're still keen on the chute idea I don't think it would be hard to make one in GRP from scratch.

Make a male plug out of clay - although to reduce the amount of clay needed you can use some other material or object as a core. Don't worry about making the shape releasable, since it's a one-off. Paint it with dusty-concrete-floor-sealer, which dries to a smooth plastic skin. Perhaps paint that with polyvinyl alcohol release agent (note this is not the normal "PVA" glue/plaster sealer, which is polyvinyl acetate). Then brush on a layer of gelcoat, then when that's just gone off do a couple of layers of mat and resin, well consolidated with a paddle-roller (but don't get too brutal with it or you'll deform the clay). If you build the plug on a board (a bit like a cake on a cake-board) and continue all the coats and layers onto the board for a couple of inches around the base of the plug, you'll end up with a nice flat rim which can be trimmed to size and then bonded to the deck of the dinghy.

The shape of the thing means there's no chance of removing the plug intact, so you peel off the board (if it doesn't want to come off, introducing water into the joint will dissolve the PVA into a slippery liquid, which is the reason for applying it) and then dig out the clay plug bit by bit. You'll be left with a nifty chute of your own design, with a nice smooth gelcoat interior.

That's what I'd do, no question, but I'm aware not everybody has all the materials to hand in their shed

Pete