swanie
New Member
I don't suppose it makes any difference to this issue but I usually sail single handed.
difficulty holding course on yacht
- Thread starter swanie
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BlueSkyNick
Well-Known Member
You might find this book about Sail Trim to be helpful
Maybe cheaper elsewhere or second hand on Amazon?
Maybe cheaper elsewhere or second hand on Amazon?
dt4134
Well-Known Member
I'd actually recommend Sails for Cruising by Mark Chisnell. There are more detailed books aimed at racers but you don't need that level of detail yet.
The simplest way to deal with being overcanvassed is to reef, which is what most cruisers do, but I think you said you don't have reef lines available yet.
Racers, which is probably what you've seen in the 707, will use the sail controls to flatten the sail. So for example the halyard will be tensioned, which makes the after part of the sail flatter and stops you heeling so much (a Cunningham does a similar job with less effort but one wouldn't be used that commonly by cruisers - and when you get into serious racing you can have lengthy discussions on the different effects of using the halyard and cunningham to tighten the luff).
If you are really overpressed one way to deal with it temporarily is to put lots of twist in the sails and feather the boat (that is sail a few degrees above the usual close hauled course) You could put twist in the main as simply as easing the mainsheet & kicker. The leech at the top will flap so it isn't that good for the sail but it will allow you to stay more upright. You can do a similar thing for the headsail by moving the cars back (if they move) and again the upper leech will flap.
Another last resort is to sail on one sail only. You need to practice this as some boats will sail well under headsail or mainsail and others won't. Mine sails well under headsail alone but requires a lot more focus to sail under main alone.
The simplest way to deal with being overcanvassed is to reef, which is what most cruisers do, but I think you said you don't have reef lines available yet.
Racers, which is probably what you've seen in the 707, will use the sail controls to flatten the sail. So for example the halyard will be tensioned, which makes the after part of the sail flatter and stops you heeling so much (a Cunningham does a similar job with less effort but one wouldn't be used that commonly by cruisers - and when you get into serious racing you can have lengthy discussions on the different effects of using the halyard and cunningham to tighten the luff).
If you are really overpressed one way to deal with it temporarily is to put lots of twist in the sails and feather the boat (that is sail a few degrees above the usual close hauled course) You could put twist in the main as simply as easing the mainsheet & kicker. The leech at the top will flap so it isn't that good for the sail but it will allow you to stay more upright. You can do a similar thing for the headsail by moving the cars back (if they move) and again the upper leech will flap.
Another last resort is to sail on one sail only. You need to practice this as some boats will sail well under headsail or mainsail and others won't. Mine sails well under headsail alone but requires a lot more focus to sail under main alone.
swanie
New Member
Thanks will look at the book. I have just bought "The Sailing Bible".
I can reef.
The 707s I learned in were fine when heeled over. My boat handles differently. Seems it just doesnt like to be heeled so much.
I can reef.
The 707s I learned in were fine when heeled over. My boat handles differently. Seems it just doesnt like to be heeled so much.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
Might be an idea to put a vague location in your profile. It often helps other when you are asking questions.
No-one will turn up and try to drink all your beer.
No-one will turn up and try to drink all your beer.
dt4134
Well-Known Member
Boats vary quite a lot. It's hard to generalise but David Thomas who I believe designed the 707 would have the reputation as someone who would've put a lot of effort into producing a balanced design at a wide range of angles of heel. Some other designers may not have put as much effort in, especially in the days when they couldn't get the computer to do the work for them, which wasn't all that long ago. And of course even today design choices sometimes lead to balance being sacrificed.
BobPrell
Well-Known Member
It might make a lot of difference. When you were doing the RYA experience, if you had crew on board, they would have helped keep your boat upright, acting as "live ballast".
My guess is that you have yet to learn that going fast is not the be-all and end-all, especially if single-handed. Shortening sail may cause you to sail slower, but you will be under better control and arrive at your destination less tired.
William_H
Well-Known Member
Sailing hard pressed
Previous posters are correct in suggesting that you reduce sail area. (Firstly the jib) when overpowered.
It does seem to me from your description that you are luffing the boat in the gusts partly because that is what the boat wants to do (weather helm) and partly because you believe it will reduce pressure which it does. However when sailing close to the wind there is a very narrow margin between luffing a little to reduce pressure and luffing too much. Too much luff will reduce boat speed hence control and bring you close to if not an inadvertent tack.
So the trick in a gust is to luff just a little but also to dump the pressure in the mainsail so maintaining speed and control.
Of course all the usual stronger wind adjustments should have been made. (outhaul halyards vang and backstay)
As said the boat sail area must be set up to the average wind strength and you should not be dealing with gusts too often. Certainly overpowering slows you down just like under powering.
You might find that the rudder is too small if the boat has a shallow keel.
I increased the area of rudder of my trailer sailer although when down it has quite a decent deep keel. The rudder was not able to provide enough power when heeled under shy spin. The larger area certainly makes a difference. good luck olewill
Previous posters are correct in suggesting that you reduce sail area. (Firstly the jib) when overpowered.
It does seem to me from your description that you are luffing the boat in the gusts partly because that is what the boat wants to do (weather helm) and partly because you believe it will reduce pressure which it does. However when sailing close to the wind there is a very narrow margin between luffing a little to reduce pressure and luffing too much. Too much luff will reduce boat speed hence control and bring you close to if not an inadvertent tack.
So the trick in a gust is to luff just a little but also to dump the pressure in the mainsail so maintaining speed and control.
Of course all the usual stronger wind adjustments should have been made. (outhaul halyards vang and backstay)
As said the boat sail area must be set up to the average wind strength and you should not be dealing with gusts too often. Certainly overpowering slows you down just like under powering.
You might find that the rudder is too small if the boat has a shallow keel.
I increased the area of rudder of my trailer sailer although when down it has quite a decent deep keel. The rudder was not able to provide enough power when heeled under shy spin. The larger area certainly makes a difference. good luck olewill
SamSalter
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing, but what's probably happening is that as the wind picks up, the boat heels more and more and the weather helm gets heavier and heavier.
Suddenly, steering is lost and she round up into the wind. Then settles back down again and it starts over.
What's happening (probably) is that the rudder is stalling and/or pulling air down from the waterline.
Other posters are right: Keep her more upright! Flatten sails or reef.
If you experience a gust, keep your heading but drop the traveller until it passes then put it back to it's original position. The idea here is to prevent more heel but maintain sail trim.
I'd do what one poster suggested and get someone to take you out with a bit more experience.
Learning to trim sails with tell-tales should be a priority too.
Keep at it-it will come!
By the way, O'Day was an olympic champion - I think - so I'm guessing the boat was designed to sail well!
Suddenly, steering is lost and she round up into the wind. Then settles back down again and it starts over.
What's happening (probably) is that the rudder is stalling and/or pulling air down from the waterline.
Other posters are right: Keep her more upright! Flatten sails or reef.
If you experience a gust, keep your heading but drop the traveller until it passes then put it back to it's original position. The idea here is to prevent more heel but maintain sail trim.
I'd do what one poster suggested and get someone to take you out with a bit more experience.
Learning to trim sails with tell-tales should be a priority too.
Keep at it-it will come!
By the way, O'Day was an olympic champion - I think - so I'm guessing the boat was designed to sail well!
Searush
Well-Known Member
lenseman
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Unless you are in the NW UK
And even then, they will photograph the beer first so that they will leave you a virtual pint to look at!
ianat182
Well-Known Member
Sam Salter. The OP says that he doesn't have a traveller fitted, his mainsheet is a fitting to the backstay only, so can only trim in and out presumably. When reading firther on the O'Day yachts some fitted a traveller across the cabin top; as the tiller comes over the transom coaming there wouldn't seem to be the room there unless a form of bridge is devised, above the tiller height, like a 'horse' ,or strop and jammers each side.
ianat182
ianat182
G12
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with the Oday 22 as such as I have delivered those and find them completely OK to sail. They don't like weather much above Force 4/5 and find lumpy seas a bit much.
I think the best thing to do is to 'borrow' a small boat skipper and ask him to come out with you for ½ and hour and ask him to see if he can see what is wrong (or might be wrong). You will learn far more doing that and have fun in the process.
If you are Portsmouth area, I will come out with you?
Or take a very good dinghy sailor. If I were pushing my boat that hard then I'd have the mainsheet in my hand, mainsail flattened as mentioned elsewhere, and ease the main in the gusts. If you have a traveller then you can ease that too. This can choke the jib slot which isn't particularly helpful but it's better than rounding up with a shedload of weather helm also slowing you down.
If you find you're still overpowered then you have to put a slab in the main. Remember, loads of heel and weather helm is slow... less sail and more control will be faster, more comfortable and put less stress on the boat.
Watch something like a 49er going upwind in a blow, most of the main will be doing nothing, it will be flat and the mast will be bent to open the leech. They don't have the option to reef and have to survive with what they've got......... oh and they'll be as upright as possible.
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ianat182
Well-Known Member
Sam Salter. The OP says that he doesn't have a traveller fitted, his mainsheet is a fitting to the backstay only, so can only trim in and out presumably. When reading further on the larger O'Day yachts, some owners fitted a traveller across the cabin top; as the tiller comes over the transom coaming there wouldn't seem to be the room there, unless a form of bridge is devised, above the tiller height, like a 'horse' ,or strop with jammers each side.
ianat182
ianat182
William_H
Well-Known Member
Traveller
A traveller can be really useful. Some classes especially dinghies rely more on a vang to pull the boom down so that releasing the main hseet only allows the boom to go out not up. However on a cabin type boat the geometry available for a vang is limited. The cabin top being close to the boom means little space for a vang. Remembering that a vang at 45 degrees ie equal distance from gooseneck to vang fitting on boom as the distance boom down to vang fitting on mast base will give equal pressure of pulling the boom down as it does pulling the boom into the mast. And then it is pulling the boom a limited distance out from the gooseneck so not much leverage.On a dinghy often the vang comes from the bottom of the mast at the keel so much more room for the vang so much more pull down power.
So on a cabin boat you are stuck with a traveller which can give huge down pull on the boom while it is allowed to swing out to release wind pressure.
Now some will have a traveller over the cabin top although only types with no top sliding hatch. Here the traveller goes full width of cabin top often on built up supports (to allow for cabin top curve) so is very wide in operating angles of boom swung out. However the mainsheet then must operate onto the boom at a point closer to the gooseneck so not much leverage downwards or inwards. (and more load on gooseneck) And of course the mainsheet is remote from the helmsman.
The opposite is the case for a stern or transom mounted traveller. It has lots of power and leverage but not much width exacerbated by the attachment being at the end of the boom. So you can't let the traveller out very far while holding down the boom. Of course the traveller track must be mounted above the tiller in a transom mounted rudder.
Other boats have a traveller mounted across the cockpit seat to seat about midway. here is perhaps the best compromise of width and power on the boom. It attaches to the boom somewhere aft of midway along the boom. It does however restrict movement forward from tiller but is handy to the helmsman.
A much inferior compromise has traveller on the cockpit floor but here width is compromised by seats.
On my little boat the traveller is across the bridge deck. ie right at the cabin entrance then across the seats. It can be dangerous if people sit in the entrance when you tack or gybe but is reachable from helm and has the best power and width.
You can use as some boats do a horse across the top of the tiller. This is either a rope or a stainless steel tube. The mainsheet is attached to a pulley so crosses over from one side to the other (over the tiller) when tacking. The disadvantage is that you can not get the boom into the middle or up wind where it is needed for best pointing in light weather.
A traveller on a track usually has 2 tackles to enable the traveller to be pulled up wind.
So if you don't have a traveller there are some options with compromise. I would not want to sail without a good traveller system. good luck olewill
A traveller can be really useful. Some classes especially dinghies rely more on a vang to pull the boom down so that releasing the main hseet only allows the boom to go out not up. However on a cabin type boat the geometry available for a vang is limited. The cabin top being close to the boom means little space for a vang. Remembering that a vang at 45 degrees ie equal distance from gooseneck to vang fitting on boom as the distance boom down to vang fitting on mast base will give equal pressure of pulling the boom down as it does pulling the boom into the mast. And then it is pulling the boom a limited distance out from the gooseneck so not much leverage.On a dinghy often the vang comes from the bottom of the mast at the keel so much more room for the vang so much more pull down power.
So on a cabin boat you are stuck with a traveller which can give huge down pull on the boom while it is allowed to swing out to release wind pressure.
Now some will have a traveller over the cabin top although only types with no top sliding hatch. Here the traveller goes full width of cabin top often on built up supports (to allow for cabin top curve) so is very wide in operating angles of boom swung out. However the mainsheet then must operate onto the boom at a point closer to the gooseneck so not much leverage downwards or inwards. (and more load on gooseneck) And of course the mainsheet is remote from the helmsman.
The opposite is the case for a stern or transom mounted traveller. It has lots of power and leverage but not much width exacerbated by the attachment being at the end of the boom. So you can't let the traveller out very far while holding down the boom. Of course the traveller track must be mounted above the tiller in a transom mounted rudder.
Other boats have a traveller mounted across the cockpit seat to seat about midway. here is perhaps the best compromise of width and power on the boom. It attaches to the boom somewhere aft of midway along the boom. It does however restrict movement forward from tiller but is handy to the helmsman.
A much inferior compromise has traveller on the cockpit floor but here width is compromised by seats.
On my little boat the traveller is across the bridge deck. ie right at the cabin entrance then across the seats. It can be dangerous if people sit in the entrance when you tack or gybe but is reachable from helm and has the best power and width.
You can use as some boats do a horse across the top of the tiller. This is either a rope or a stainless steel tube. The mainsheet is attached to a pulley so crosses over from one side to the other (over the tiller) when tacking. The disadvantage is that you can not get the boom into the middle or up wind where it is needed for best pointing in light weather.
A traveller on a track usually has 2 tackles to enable the traveller to be pulled up wind.
So if you don't have a traveller there are some options with compromise. I would not want to sail without a good traveller system. good luck olewill
