difficulty holding course on yacht

[swanie]

New to sailing. I have a 22 foot keel boat.

I have difficulty holding course when heading up wind in strong wind.

The boat leans over until the water is nearly coming over, this is ok but then sometimes the boat swings upright and head into wind. So I am weaving. Seems that no matter what I do, I can not stop this. I push the rudder as far as possible. Frustrating.

The 707 boat I trained on with rya did not have this problem. Seemed to have a more responsive and larger rudder.

Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Burnham Bob]

I'm sure the more expert forumites will have a better answer, but sounds to me like you're sailing a bit too hard. Take in a reef so the boat doesn't heel so much. The balance of your sails will also affect weather/lee helm so if you're fighting the tiller steering will be difficult and regardless of where you steer, the boat will go where it wants if the balance is too far out.

Reefing shouldn't really affect your speed, but it will help the boat become more manageable.

 

[VicS]

Initially try flattening the mainsail by setting the traveller to leeward and tightening the main sheet ( and the kicker)

If you have a flattening reef /Cunningham use it.

If that's not effective reduce headsail size and reef the mainsail.

But what boat do you have?

 

[Searush]

I agree, it sounds like you are over canvassed. Sailing boats are not meant to be sailed gunwhales under normally, it affects the underwater shape & can create bad weather helm. It's also possible that you have the sheets (especially the main) in too tight. At the risk of teaching you to suck eggs, slack the sheet until it starts to luff & then tighten only enough to quieten the luff. Sometimes an over tight genny can backwind the main, but it is impossible to be sure without seeing you sailing.

You could post a video of the sails & tell-tales on U-tube next time it happens.

Err, you have got tell tales haven't you? If not, put a couple of bits of wool thro the jib about 300mm behind the luff about 1/3 & 2/3 the way up & do the same for the leech of the main. These will indicate the airflow at those points & tell you when you are over sheeted or not hard enough.

 

[ianat182]

Release the mainsheet traveller on its track toward the leeward side on each tack, in heavy weather/winds, keeping the mainsheet at the same tension as before.This will help in dumping the main for the more extreme gusts.
Pinning the boom to the centre of the track is causing the griping and excessive weather helm.
As said previously by BB ,taking a reef in will make for a faster sail and with less weather helm(reef the mainsail first,and also for a second reef before reefing the genoa or jib).

What boat do you have? Corribee or Pandora maybe?

ianat182

 

[rob2]

I notice others have viewed your profile, presumably to see what type of boat you're sailing. This may be the key issue in answering your question as different boats respond in their own way to conditions and sail trim, etc. The 707 you had as a training boat is particularly good at dealing with more difficult conditions. This doesn't mean it has an enormous rudder, but a hull and keel shape that are particularly good shape for it. Such a well mannered boat is typically chosen for a sailing school boat as it will be mishandled quite often!

A lot of cruiser designs sacrifice the advantages of say a narrow waterline for the extra accomodation to be gained with a beamier shape. More freeboard and windage the same. Racers may be designed purely for speed in normal conditions and are more than a handful when it cuts up rough.

Try reefing well before you feel you have to and see if it improves things without loss of speed - it shouldn't be a white-knuckle ride! Perhaps this is why your profile say "...has no friends yet" ;-)

Rob.

 

[Simondjuk]

As well as all the previous suggestions, don't bear away in the gusts. Allow the boat to come up on the wind a little, as she wants to, so as to luff a little and depower the sails. You should then be able to retain control until the gust eases.

If you bear away in a pre-emptive attempt to prevent the boat rounding up, you power up the sails and make the situation worse.

Feather the gusts.

 

[KellysEye]

>slack the sheet until it starts to luff & then tighten only enough to quieten the luff.

Agree and also agree with a reef. If the sails are properly set and sized a boat shouldn't round up, in my experience anyway.

 

[swanie]

Possibly am sailing it a bit hard. I just pushed it over just like we did with the 707s. There is occasionally blue toilet water on the deck and the sink overflows from the outlet to the sea.

"Reefing shouldn't really affect your speed" I hadn't bothered with reefing as I wanted it to go faster. I will reef and see if that stops the problem. I thought reefing was more of an emergency procedure when things get scary, to stop the boat from getting damaged or turning over in near gales.

Thats exactly, it, the boat goes where it wants.

I have a Cunningham and will now use it. (not covered in course I did with rya). On buying the boat and getting it in the water, I just pulled the Cunningham hand tight and left it alone like an extra kicker type thing.

Boat is an Oday 22.

Telltales yes. Tried the mainsail in various positions, including the traveller. It did make a bit of a difference. But I felt that it wasn't the whole story and with lack of experience I thought I was probably just creating 2 wrongs and getting a half right. Was it Richard Nixon who said, if two wrongs don't work, try a third!

There is no fixing for the traveller but it will stay where it is put.

Thanks for all the information, I have lots more to try next time.

 

[swanie]

The jib is much bigger than the mainsail. A 125% jib.

 

[AliM]

We watch the 707's racing and they commonly are heeled at an angle much greater than we'd be comfortable with. One of the big lessons I've learned is that a reef (or two) often actually allows you to sail quicker, as well as (or because) you are more upright, and more in control. All boats are different, and it's part of learning to handle your boat, to work out when it's best to reef.

 

[pcranness]

Sounds like too much sail to me, causing a broach. This is when the boat is overpowered, which moves the centre of effort forward (i think, i'm sure someone will be along in a moment to correct me if i'm wrong) this then causes the boat to head into the wind. The helmsman tries to use the rudder to bear away but this isn't powerful enough to stop the boating turning into the wind.

As stated before the easiest way to stop this is less sail, so reef.

Having a quick Google of the Oday 22 it doesn't look like the sort of boat that likes to sailed on it's ear. It may feel quick & exciting, but the chances are it's actually quite slow.

 

[lenseman]

Possibly am sailing it a bit hard. . . . . Boat is an Oday 22. . . . . .

Nothing wrong with the Oday 22 as such as I have delivered those and find them completely OK to sail. They don't like weather much above Force 4/5 and find lumpy seas a bit much.

I think the best thing to do is to 'borrow' a small boat skipper and ask him to come out with you for ½ and hour and ask him to see if he can see what is wrong (or might be wrong). You will learn far more doing that and have fun in the process.

If you are Portsmouth area, I will come out with you?

 

[ianat182]

Yes I too googled for the O'Day22 and found a few Youtube videos, particularly one: 'Sailing my O'Day22 with Andre', a relaxed sail; but what did catch my attention was to me the strange mainsheet tackle arrangement fixed to the backstay??!
Other vids show the yacht reefed down in perhaps a F3(no white-topped waves showing) and very upright sail with 3 persons aboard (one on the foredeck) but no kicking strap fitted.So perhaps this yacht has to be reefed earlier.The last vid I watched had 5 persons aboard and reefed mainsail, but looked to be only a moderate wind again.



ianat182

 

[ProDave]

Yes I too googled for the O'Day22 and found a few Youtube videos, particularly one: 'Sailing my O'Day22 with Andre', a relaxed sail; but what did catch my attention was to me the strange mainsheet tackle arrangement fixed to the backstay??!

That's exactly the same mainsheet arrangement I have on my Frolic 18. Like that boat, I don't have a mainsheet traveller.

I've been reading this thread with interest as we had (have?) similar issue with out Frolic 18 (discussed before) which boil down mainly to us still being beginners, and in my case, the fact we have no reefing points yet (something still to be addressed)

The suggestion to get a more experienced sailor to go out with you is a good one. When we were having difficulties early last year, another club member came out with us, and that was really useful showing us the right way to do things, and giving us more confidence in the boat.

 

[johnalison]

One factor in causing a broach is loss of rudder action when the boat is slowed down by hitting a wave. It is important at all costs to keep the boat speed up, even if that means losing a little ground to the best course. In high winds, letting the sails flap will also cause extra drag and slow the boat and it is sometimes better to pinch up a bit than to ease the mainsheet too much.

Another cause of difficulty is when inexperienced helmsmen try too hard to keep the apparent wind constant at around 30 degrees. If the boat is slowed by a wave, the temptation is to turn into the wind as the apparent wind moves aft. The result is that rudder and keel will stall and control is lost.

If you go out on a windy day it soon becomes obvious that the boats going best are those with the best set, and set of, sails.

 

[Searush]

If it's a big genoa & roller reefing, just start by taking a few turns on that. It's surprising how a genny with overlap can cause weather helm - it's sort of counter intuitive but true.

 

[TSB240]

The O day has a 23" long stub keel unless it has the later drop keel .

The hunter has a 5 foot deep narrow fin and bulb.

http://www.iheartodays.com/files/model_oday_22_pic_4_600w_450h.jpg

The early designs had a mast head rig the later ones had a fractional rig.

IMHO The O day is a lightweight trailable lake boat designed for the American lakes and bears no comparison with the Hunter 707. Comparisons would be similar to an early Mac.

It should probably be treated the same as any other trailable boat. So get used to reefing early to keep the windows out of the water

The long stub keel will probably mask any mast rake tuning and will be the cause of heavy rudder input especially on the edge of broaching.

 

[ianat182]

Part of the description of the O'Day22(there were two versions at least plus a 222 and larger version) was that they were 'shoal keeled' yachts so a tallish rig on a shallow draught yacht.
The examples mentioned were on the Great Lakes of America.

I believe O'Day also had input into one or more of the Victoria Yachts, good looking and sailing performance designs.

ianat182

 

[swanie]

Thanks for all the fantastic info. I will definately be reefing earlier and roll in some genoa to see what is best on my boat to sail as fast as possible without broaching when the wind gets up a bit.

lenseman , thanks for the offer but I live far too far away. Will get someone experienced out though.