Different boats in the same series.

[Mark-1]

For the first time in my life I'm in a position to choose a class to suit the conditions.

Now, I know I'm (typically) not allowed to do that in races in the same series, but what (typically) actually happens when I do? Do my entries in each boat count as two different competitors in the series? Or do they scratch out all my entries? What if someone else enters a boat that had been previously sailed by someone else in the same series?

I've checked our sailing instructions with no joy, so what would typically happen.

I don't GAF about my position in the series, but I *would* like my results recorded.

(I have a horrible feeling the real question is "what does the software do about it". And yes, I could google, but this is more fun.)

 

[flaming]

Do my entries in each boat count as two different competitors in the series?

Yes.

What if someone else enters a boat that had been previously sailed by someone else in the same series?

I've seen NOR that state quite clearly that in the event of a boat changing hands mid series it would be a new entry. Without that NOR I think it would count as the boat.

After all my boat has sailed events in a series without me, and we've still counted the results to the overall.

 

[oldbloke]

Generally speaking Flaming is dead right but there is no law about it. It's should be stated in the notice of race or sailing instructions.
Dinghy racing is normally 1 entered helm in 1 boat.
Big boat racing is the boat entered, often in the name of the owner , who may never step on the boat, and it is common for more than 1 person to helm
I have sailed at a club where you were allowed to count results from more than one boat in a series
But I have also sailed at a dinghy club where the named helm was allowed to sail different boats during a series and I have sailed at dinghy clubs where the boat was entered in the name of the owner with no limitation on who sails it.

 

[Mark-1]

Generally speaking Flaming is dead right but there is no law about it. It's should be stated in the notice of race or sailing instructions.
Dinghy racing is normally 1 entered helm in 1 boat.
Big boat racing is the boat entered, often in the name of the owner , who may never step on the boat, and it is common for more than 1 person to helm
I have sailed at a club where you were allowed to count results from more than one boat in a series
But I have also sailed at a dinghy club where the named helm was allowed to sail different boats during a series and I have sailed at dinghy clubs where the boat was entered in the name of the owner with no limitation on who sails it.

Yeah, two dinghy clubs I've been in had a specific series that allowed helms to swap boats as a novelty, so the exception that proves the rule says the other series don't.

And now Flaming mentions it back in the day I used to an evening big boat series and the owner was never on it and the crew was random. Then I did the same more recently where there were joint owners who used to swap. In both cases the boat must have been in the series despite wildly different personnel.

So thanks both. Most likely I can choose different boats and still race as long as I don't GAF about the series, which I don't. Result. If that's not possible I won't look dumb for thinking it might be!

 

[Lucky Duck]

This reminds me of the “joys’ of choosing between the then radial and full rigs back when I sailed a Laser as a youth.

IIRC class rules forbid changing rigs mid series

 

[Mark-1]

This reminds me of the “joys’ of choosing between the then radial and full rigs back when I sailed a Laser as a youth.

IIRC class rules forbid changing rigs mid series

Meanwhile other classes (Supanova, for instance) allow you to change sail sizes and/or change the cut of a sail. So some classes allow competitors to match a rig to the day and still count those results in the series whereas others (Laser) count as different classes. (But you get a handicap advantage in individual races.)

Gotta love handicap racing, swings and roundabouts.

 

[dunedin]

This reminds me of the “joys’ of choosing between the then radial and full rigs back when I sailed a Laser as a youth.

IIRC class rules forbid changing rigs mid series

I believe that some top sailors enter two very different boats for the major winter dinghy handicap events - one a fast breezy weather boat and one a more traditional slower boat with favourable handicap for light winds. Somewhat gaming it.

 

[Mark-1]

I believe that some top sailors enter two very different boats for the major winter dinghy handicap events - one a fast breezy weather boat and one a more traditional slower boat with favourable handicap for light winds. Somewhat gaming it.

Now I'm in the rare position of being able to do this I've realized you also need to know what the course is. If it's quite a "reachy" course you might want to use your overpowered light wind boat in a strong wind. And - even with the best will in the world - it's a bit rude to leave your entry until after the course is up.

Sadly the best way to game the system is lots and lots of hard cash, even at the grassroots level.

 

[oldbloke]

I believe that some top sailors enter two very different boats for the major winter dinghy handicap events - one a fast breezy weather boat and one a more traditional slower boat with favourable handicap for light winds. Somewhat gaming it.

But they swap the chance of doing well in the series for the chance of doing well in the individual event

 

[Mark-1]

But they swap the chance of doing well in the series for the chance of doing well in the individual event

Yeah, that's the trade off. However, it might be a one day event or even a one race event.

Of course if you pick the perfect vessel for the first day of a multi day series that's a head start.

Most importantly you can choose the most fun for the wind.

Only the last factor is important to me. I want to go for an occasional dinghy sail around and if I'm sailing about I might as well be racing. Changing boats just widens the range of winds where its worth bothering. A light day will be more fun with a massive rig.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Meanwhile other classes (Supanova, for instance) allow you to change sail sizes and/or change the cut of a sail. So some classes allow competitors to match a rig to the day and still count those results in the series whereas others (Laser) count as different classes. (But you get a handicap advantage in individual races.)

Gotta love handicap racing, swings and roundabouts.

Back then the radial and full had the same PY, something about the lighter crew offsetting the reduced sail area. That did change shortly after I sold my radial rig.

My first Laser also came with a M rig which was ‘interesting’

 

[Mark-1]

Back then the radial and full had the same PY, something about the lighter crew offsetting the reduced sail area. That did change shortly after I sold my radial rig.

My first Laser also came with a M rig which was ‘interesting’

Just googled the M rig and I really like the idea of a Halyard. Lack of halyard was never a problem sailing inland where i could capsize the boat flat onto a soft lawn between races. It looks deeply inconvenient on the sea. People seem to leave them to flog which is far from ideal.

 

[Birdseye]

And now Flaming mentions it back in the day I used to an evening big boat series and the owner was never on it and the crew was random. Then I did the same more recently where there were joint owners who used to swap. In both cases the boat must have been in the series despite wildly different personnel.

If the big boat concerned is racing IRC then the handicap is that of the boat and crew changes shouldnt be a concern though they likely will affect the result by affecting how well the boat is sailed against its capabilities.. If however the boat is racing NHC or similar, handicap systems that adjust according to crew capability, then changing crew mid series makes a nonsense of the results. That said it still happens race to race in our club.

We have several boats in our IRC fleet where the helm and crew change race to race. Some of them have three owners who helm in turn.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Just googled the M rig and I really like the idea of a Halyard. Lack of halyard was never a problem sailing inland where i could capsize the boat flat onto a soft lawn between races. It looks deeply inconvenient on the sea. People seem to leave them to flog which is far from ideal.

The early radials also had a halyard, there was a ‘cap’ you put over the standard top section and the sail had a pocket for the spare rope by the tack of the sail. Presumably there was a cleat on the gooseneck fitting but can’t remember.

However I very much doubt I ever used them to raise and lower the sail as envisaged

 

[Chris 249]

deleted

 

[Chris 249]

The early radials also had a halyard, there was a ‘cap’ you put over the standard top section and the sail had a pocket for the spare rope by the tack of the sail. Presumably there was a cleat on the gooseneck fitting but can’t remember.

However I very much doubt I ever used them to raise and lower the sail as envisaged

I’ve got an old beater with a home-made cap and halyard system. The sail raises and lowers surprisingly well although one would scream if a racing sail was ever subject to that much wrinkling. I plan to make a metal cap using an old bottom section so that a simple cleat can be used as a halyard lock, because at the moment you lose luff tension when the mast bends.

 

[Egret]

Back to the original post, is it really good sport in the old fashioned sense to want to use a different boat to suit conditions to gain advantage?

 

[Mark-1]

Back to the original post, is it really good sport in the old fashioned sense to want to use a different boat to suit conditions to gain advantage?

It's the opposite of competitive advantage. I'm seeking to have maximum fun on tbe water on individual days at the expense of any hope of placing well in the series.

 

[Egret]

Fair enough - My club you can sail what you like with who you like, but each counts as an individual entry so won't count for a series - unless you ask for dispensation - like for different crews of similar sizes where they won't make a performance difference - so I presume other clubs will be similar. Depends how serious the race series is and how big the boats are.

Doesn't matter really - You'll get results for each - and if you sail several boats, you can work out where you would be in each race and overall. If you are not on the official overall results why worry?

If others are in similar situation you can have a mini competition on which to use and how well you do..

Interesting thing with big events, is that probably only the top 5% have a chance of winning but the other 95% still want to go racing - so results don't really matter - do they?

 

[seeSimon]

It's the opposite of competitive advantage. I'm seeking to have maximum fun on tbe water on individual days at the expense of any hope of placing well in the series.

That would certainly be the case hereabouts! Two different boats in the same series = two different entries.
....And a great many DNCs on the score card for both boats. Correctly so, imho.

Years ago, I did contemplate something similar, a big Rooster 8.1m2 rig on the laser for summer Wednesday evening series (predominantly light winds) and a standard 7m2 rig for Sunday morning series.
Then work commitments got in the way...also meaning a great many DNCs.