Diesel fuel

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jjj

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Quick question relating to diesel fuel, is there any difference between red diesel available from marine centers and pump diesel distributed by automotive or truck outlets apart from the obvious price difference. Do some brands of diesel have more additives or sulfurs which tend to suit older motors etc or do the Fuel companies adhere to a general standard which is suitable for a range of motors. Thanks JJJ
 
I was told that the reason marine diesels give off white smoke is partly as the fuel is not as well refined. Not sure if it's true /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
If you would like some data .... PM me

I do own a Petro-Chemical Lab dealing with this ....
 
As far as I know, in Italy the different color is simply due to different dying for fiscal reasons. Taxes are applied differently depending on usage.
If the Revenue guards find you with the wrong color in your tank it's bad news...
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... Duncan ... not quite true ...

My reluctance to post is as a result of others sick sense of humour spoiling my enjoyment and trying to score points of me ...

I am MORE than willing to pass on my knowledge about diesel and the different dyes / colours / use / additives and quality issues - no problem ... But I do not wish to end up in a mud contest on the forum.

I am sure you know exactly what I am referring to ... and I thank you for staying clear as most others did of the fracas.

My contribution to the forums is somewhat in review shall we say ...
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... OK ....

Red as available at Marine outlets for boat use >

Generally a 0.2% Sulphur gasoil - same as agricultural .... with lower tax. It is being found that in some cases lower Sulphur diesel is coming into the system.

Road / Truck Diesel as available at Road-station pumps >

This is ULSD .... a lot of People call this City Diesel - which is actually not correct, as that is a Brand Name, not a general fuel name ... (bit like Fairy Liquid vs Washing Up liquid......). True name Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel. It has a vastly lower Sulphur level at presently 50ppm and soon to reduce further to 35ppm. The ultimate aim is get as near to zero Sulphur as possible..... but that will take years.

As to use of the two grades .... they are usable generally in all reasonably modern engines and to be honest most older engines except Vintage / Veteran - where additional additives over and above what is already added may be beneficial.

Diesels of the low Sulphur grades when destined for Road use etc. are subject to EN 590 specification which stipulates the properties of the fuel. It includes Lubricity, CFPP, Pour Pt, Distillation just to name a few .... (Google for EN590 and you will see endless pages about the specs etc.). As you'll gather - the lack of Sulphur, which Sulphur has a side-effect of lubricating injection pumps and other parts of the engine, is compensated for by adding Lubricity agents to bring the diesel back to spec. Winterising of the diesel is done with various CFPP / Cloud Pt additives......(these also find their way into higher Sulphur gasoils as well .....)

So in answer to your post ... Red is a lower quality but higher Sulphur fuel in most cases. Road or white as its commonly termed has had Sulphur washed out to a much lower level and then additives put in to spike it for general use.

We will not get into Blue / Yellow dyes / markers - as these are designated for other market uses of the gasoil.

Final thought ..... Many people distinguish between Heating oil and Red ... in fact in many cases they are one and same .... just different dyes and additives. Don't believe me ? Then a look at various coasters loading up Gasoil in ports and company's like mine adding dye dependent on which use the gasoil will be put to .... its generally all 0.2% gasoil.

If you receive a Heating Oil that is NOT same as 0.2% Gasoil - then that is down to supplier and what stock blend is used - it makes no difference really in that usage .... as its a burner rather than an engine.

You may hear terms such as MDO ... Marine Diesel Oil ... which is a much lower grade of Gasoil that is generally dark in colour - can be near black at times .... and is poor quality. It is certainly NOT what you buy for your yacht engine and should not be used ... it is big ships Gasoil ..... so unlikely that you will get access to it.

A point of interest .... more and more refinery's are changing over to Low Sulphur production and reducing 0.2% grade ... in fact at times it can be hard to source what was termed Normal Export Gasoil .... and it will mean that ULSD will appear more in the Marine outlets .... hopefully still with Tax Concession ......
 
Heating Oil

Our heating oil is called "28sec Kerosene". I don't think it's the same as Diesel. Thinner? In a previous house we used the same, then when we ran out we tried to use agricultural Red Diesel in the Esse stove - sooted up in no time.

(Edit - checking the Rayburn web site suggests that heating oil sold as "35sec gas-oil" is the same as Diesel, but different from our stuff)

Tony S
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... OK ....

Fraid I just got confused with the previous threads/argy bargy, so I'm going to stick with Nigel's explanation and ignore any future threads. Not that knowing makes any difference to what I put in the tank - red disel from the marina.
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... OK ....

Nigel,
Thank you for the info on diesel. I appreciated it. I also appreciated your reluctance to proffer it. If some w.....s want to give you some grief for your postings I for one, will be more than happy to flame them. There are some real (well actually apparent) smart-arses about.
Regards
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... OK ....

Thank you very much for reply, I think your views on the subject are very informative and certainly help me to understand the complexities. Thanks JJJ
 
Re: Heating Oil

This is probably cause the burners are not correct .... I have no way of telling what set-up you have and I can say that we have vessels load 0.2% Gasoil which we then dye for the different markets ..... blue for heating, red for agri ....

There are many different levels of quality and the spectrum of fuel from Fuel Oil through to high end Gasolines is mind-boggling. So my general statement - is just that general and your sooting up of boiler is more than possible.

You also have to note that many gasoils and other fuels get blended before end market use .... again subject to each market and equipment designed for.
 
Thanks ....

I don't know all the answers .... no-one does - we are all learning till the day we shuffle of the earth ....

It just annoys me that some think they are gods gift to mankind and have the right to ridicule or just be downright rude .....

Thanks again and I try to help, if I get it wrong sometimes - well we are all human !

Good luck ....
 
Re: Diesel fuel ... OK ....

I presume the customs and exise are ok on using heating fuel in a boat engine. tax on heating fuel is 5% i think not sure what it is on red diesel
 
Re: Diesel fuel and Heating Fuel C&E tax\'s etc.

I would advise against any use of alternatives to that which C&E allow, regardless of Tax levels .... unless of course you are using a fuel with higher tax - then they will quietly thank you for the extra revenue.

If anyone was to use a fuel such as Blue Gasoil instead of Red in a boat engine - same tax or less - then C&E would be most interested to feel your collar. They get a little touchy about the subject.
Everyone knows they react badly if you put red in your car / truck .... but few probably think about the heating oil into boat engines ...... and I would expect them to not be happy.

There is also the subject of Environmental issue - certain fuels are designed for specific use in relation to quality and emissions - so you may cross the line on that as well.

The fact is a Diesel engine because of its high compression will run on loads of strange concoctions - whether they are any good is another matter .... The big ships Main engines that use Fuel Oil are technically Diesel engines firing based on compression .....

I don't use anything except Red in UK - as my car is UMS and my summer mobile is LPG. So I am not up on tax levels / pricing of heating oil etc. Not my field so to speak !

On the subject of Red - I hope the "ember" that is glowing in the distance - ref. Govt looking at Red situation and private boats comes to a favourable conclusion ... but I bet Brussels "sprouts" will squirm and fight though ..... Might just be the first good thing this Govt does ! OOP'S !!
 
Re: Diesel fuel and Heating Fuel C&E tax\'s etc.

Nigel
can we find the definitive about C&E? i always was under the impression that fuel taxed at punitive rates such as petrol and white diesel was done so because it was taxed for vehicule hiway use.
i dont think they give a fig about fuel burned "offroad" as in generators, boats etc at the moment.
stu
 
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