Diesel - changes

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asteven221

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Apologies if this has been discussed at lenght before, but I have not sen anything recently and thought I would raise the subject to start a debate. That is if anyone is particularly interested! I am not speaking with any authority on the subject incidently. Just yer "average joe" boating enthusiast who is getting a bit concerned that yet again, we're getting a raw deal.

As most of us know there are changes with fuel. For some (non sea - I think) it's here and coming along for the rest of us, (who are on the sea) I believe Jan 2012. I am talking of course about low sulpher and biodiesel fuel.

I am not an expert on the technicalities, but believe the changes are likely to cause us significant problems, some quite serious in regard to our fuel systems amd engines. It will cost us a few bob too.

Are we all going to just accept it as we Brits tend to do, or try and do something about it?
I feel we should raise awareness and push/lobby MP's or whomesoever to try and stop what seems to me to be a big problem coming along.

Hopefully I am correct in saying this, but I have been told that this problem will affect commercial boating (fishermen etc....) which I hope is the case as I can't see the commercial sector accepting damaged engines, sludge in their tanks and all the rest of the problems. I was recently informed CalMac ferries have run a trial on the new diesel and had to stop the trial as it was causing all sorts of problems. Maybe if the leisure boating industry does nothing then at least the commercial sector can fight and we can benefit on the back of that.

I have been told (by a farmer) that it also affects farm machinary and the farmers are starting to get restless about what's happening. Again that will help us hopefully, as the NFU are getting involved.

I am sure there will be other trade bodies out there starting to look at this.

So what does everyone think about this? We're all involved at the end of the day.
 
Seems to me that if it is true we are going to be sold a product that is not fit for purpose, but it can't be that simple is it?
 
So have we on the inland waterways, but I'm not sure that it is such a doomsday scenario. Our car engines have been running on 2.5% to 7% bio for the past 3 years, and I am not aware of any issues as a result.
 
In theory it should only affect inland and coastal waters; "old style" gas oil does not have to have the biodiesel element in it.

However, trying to get such fuel may well be a problem as refineries are not set up to make too many types of fuel.

It is said that the reduced sulphur content is not too much of a problem and could be counteracted by additives.

The principal issue is that increased levels of biodiesel will attract / contain free water and where the fuel is not replaced on a very regular basis, then the diesel bug can be a problem.

The new regulations say that diesel fuel CAN (not MUST) contain up to 10% of FAME. Given that biodiesel is probably more expensive for the refiner, I wonder just by how much the percentage will rise.



Informed comments anyone?
 
asteven221 said:
Apologies if this has been discussed at lenght before, but I have not sen anything recently and thought I would raise the subject to start a debate. That is if anyone is particularly interested! I am not speaking with any authority on the subject incidently. Just yer "average joe" boating enthusiast who is getting a bit concerned that yet again, we're getting a raw deal.

As most of us know there are changes with fuel. For some (non sea - I think) it's here and coming along for the rest of us, (who are on the sea) I believe Jan 2012. I am talking of course about low sulpher and biodiesel fuel.

I am not an expert on the technicalities, but believe the changes are likely to cause us significant problems, some quite serious in regard to our fuel systems amd engines. It will cost us a few bob too.

Are we all going to just accept it as we Brits tend to do, or try and do something about it?
I feel we should raise awareness and push/lobby MP's or whomesoever to try and stop what seems to me to be a big problem coming along.

Hopefully I am correct in saying this, but I have been told that this problem will affect commercial boating (fishermen etc....) which I hope is the case as I can't see the commercial sector accepting damaged engines, sludge in their tanks and all the rest of the problems. I was recently informed CalMac ferries have run a trial on the new diesel and had to stop the trial as it was causing all sorts of problems. Maybe if the leisure boating industry does nothing then at least the commercial sector can fight and we can benefit on the back of that.

I have been told (by a farmer) that it also affects farm machinary and the farmers are starting to get restless about what's happening. Again that will help us hopefully, as the NFU are getting involved.

I am sure there will be other trade bodies out there starting to look at this.

So what does everyone think about this? We're all involved at the end of the day.
Click to expand...

It is hard to belive that there can be so many misconceptions.

#1 Fuel is NOT ULSD (50PPM) it is virtually sulphur free, the sulphur content is so low that it is almost impossible to measure.

#2 'I am sure there will be other trade bodies out there starting to look at this' Starting to look at this....this is not some regulation suddenly foisted on us by the EU without imput from trade bodies, DTI was one of my sponsors. We started this discussion around 2000 and eventually implemented into our National law. When I retired in 2002 we had managed to obtain a sensible compromise, German MEP's wanted a start date of 2007. No point in moaning and groaning to MP's we are all signed up, as is every major World economy.

#3 You cannot have low emission diesel engines without getting rid of the sulphur in addition use of even ULSD will poison some forms of exhaust after treatment incurring major cost.

#4 Trials have were carried out by the rail industry years ago on both medium and high speed diesel engines with just a few ill effects noted on very old, worn and dirty engines. Not sure what CalMac have been screwing around at, however if true they are on dangerous legal ground as flash point is lower than current SOLAS requirement.

#5 Cummins, Ford and Perkins have major engine manufacturing plants in the UK, do we really want to scupper what is left of manufacturing in this country?

#6 Certain engines will actually benifit with lower levels of start up smoke.
 
Last edited:
But presumably it is not as efficient as what we have been using. My Volvo manual (KAD32) states

"Fuel specification
Fuel must meet national and international standards at least. For example:
EN 590 (with national environmental and cold standards)
ASTM D 975 No 1-D and 2-D
JIS KK 2204
Sulfur content: According to statutory requirements.
Fuels with extremely low sulfur contents (“urban diesel” in Sweden and “city diesel” in Finland) can cause a drop in output of 5% and an increase in fuel consumption of 2–3%."
 
just for the record and to put some of you out of your sceptical outlook.

Low sulphur diesel was introduced to Oz many years ago, it costs around 10% more to start with, then with higher demand the refinery's continued raising the price 'because it cost more to produce'.

I was driving a 1998 Ford transit, 2.5 with turbo at the time, it took about 3 months for the new diesel to effect the seals in the fuel pump, and almost AU$2000.00 to have it repaired.

Very few other vehicles had any problems.

Meantime the boat engines had no problems then, and still none now.

Hope this helps.:)

PS. I got the wife to make me a sausage made of chamois with one open end that fits into the boat tank filler/s. The diesel flows through no problem at all, but, any water or debris is trapped and reported to the seller.:eek:

Good luck and fair winds.:)
 
Diesel changes

Bio diesel can cause problems. Farmers using bulk tanks are using additives to help avoid problems in their machinery.
With boat tanks a simple solution is to add a product called BG Bio diesel fuel conditioner. This reduces the risk of fuel gel, it helps claen the entire fuel system and controls fuel related deposits. It promotes moisture seperation, stabilizes fuel, neutralises harmfull metalic contaminants and protects engine parts from rust. Anyone already experiencing problems should try BG244, this product has a key active ingredient called polyether-amine see www.enginemanufacturers.org for more information.
BG244 will clean vaves, injectors and the combustion chamber of soft and baked hard carbons. It is particularly effective on engines that have been running on poor quality diesel.
This is an American product now available in the UK.
Contact me for further information as I am the distributor in Norfolk, I can help with other locations if required.
 
Diesel

Apart from being an MDL customer I have no relationship with them, but I found this on their website:

If you are one of the growing numbers of boaters concerned about the risk of diesel bug, caused by biodiesel in the fuel supply - following the introduction of new fuel quality legislation - you can be rest assured when you refuel at an MDL marina. Responding to the new EU diesel fuel legislation requirements, MDL Marinas is leading the way in the industry to offer a new low-sulphur fuel, which is free from all biofuels (FAME-free), in accordance with the new British standard BS 2869:2010 - Class A2.

The decision to introduce this new fuel came after concerns continued to mount from boat owners about the environmental effects, as well as contamination of fuel tanks with diesel bug, which clogs filters causing loss of power and engine breakdown.

Dean Smith, Marketing Director at MDL Marinas, said: “We understand our customers concerns over biodiesel content in marine fuel, and through the support of our supplier, we are delighted to be able to secure supplies of diesel which meet the new British standard.

“To ensure this fuel reaches the pump in top condition, we conduct regular fuel tank cleaning and testing. This supply and our steps to ensure we maintain our fuel quality, gives our customers all the environmental benefits of low sulphur fuel with the added peace of mind that the potential problems of biodiesel will be avoided.”

MDL’s fuel stations are supplied by Shell’s distributor, Emo Oils Limited.
 
Latestarter1 said:
It is hard to belive that there can be so many misconceptions.

#1 Fuel is NOT ULSD (50PPM) it is virtually sulphur free, the sulphur content is so low that it is almost impossible to measure.

#2 'I am sure there will be other trade bodies out there starting to look at this' Starting to look at this....this is not some regulation suddenly foisted on us by the EU without imput from trade bodies, DTI was one of my sponsors. We started this discussion around 2000 and eventually implemented into our National law. When I retired in 2002 we had managed to obtain a sensible compromise, German MEP's wanted a start date of 2007. No point in moaning and groaning to MP's we are all signed up, as is every major World economy.

#3 You cannot have low emission diesel engines without getting rid of the sulphur in addition use of even ULSD will poison some forms of exhaust after treatment incurring major cost.

#4 Trials have were carried out by the rail industry years ago on both medium and high speed diesel engines with just a few ill effects noted on very old, worn and dirty engines. Not sure what CalMac have been screwing around at, however if true they are on dangerous legal ground as flash point is lower than current SOLAS requirement.

#5 Cummins, Ford and Perkins have major engine manufacturing plants in the UK, do we really want to scupper what is left of manufacturing in this country?

#6 Certain engines will actually benifit with lower levels of start up smoke.
Click to expand...

Hi Latestarter1. I believe you know your stuff so respect what you are saying, however I am a bit confused with some of your statements. Maybe you could explain for the less well informed.

#1 not sure what your point is here. Is this a good thing for our engines?

#2 OK so maybe moaning at MP etc is a waste of time, but I understand that the fuel suppliers can supply better fuel for us, if there is enough demand or moaning done. Are you saying that we should do nothing? I understand that others (RYA etc..) seem to be taking a different view.

#3 this doesn't sound to good to me and doesn't sound like something we should just accept as okay. Have I picked you up wrong?

#4 I was told Calmac (heard 2nd hand - 2 sources) were trialing the fuel in their small ferries with lots of problems appearing i.e. sludge etc...... If as you say the "new" fuel is dodgy re SOLAS, then that suggests to me that all of us will have dangerous fuel on board re fire risk. Surely that in itself is a big issue that effects charter companies as well as loads of others? Is the fuel going to alter to meet the fire regs? I take it the the inland users are okay to have didgy fuel on board then. Hmmm that seems an odd situation.

#5 I am not sure what you mean.

#6 What engines in general will benefit?

I genuinely thought this is a bigger issue than it now seems. Speaking to others, they seem to think much the same as me so I am confused. What's the facts? Can we simply forget this as an issue because at the end of the day it's not going to effect any of us much. Is just going to be a case of adding a reasonably low cost additive to give us at least the same characteristics of the fuel we currently use i.e. normal red diesel.? If so great, then there's nothing to get worked up about. If on the otherhand the additive is going to cost a fortune, tanks need rebuilt for special drain taps and inspection features, filters need changed every few weeks then with respect, I think that is a problem.

Hopefully Latestarter1, you can give us the benefit of your knowledge on this, which i am sure we will all appreciate. I certainly will!
 
Bio diesel

I am sure MDL will endeavour to keep their supplies in top condition.
The problem as I understand it is that when bio diesel is stored in boat tanks for long periods problems can occur, this is when specialist additives can help.
I am a distributor for BG products in East Anglia, drop me an email and will send full information. E-mail michael.scott93@tesco.net
PS interested in multi season copper antifouling?
 
asteven221 said:
Hi Latestarter1. I believe you know your stuff so respect what you are saying, however I am a bit confused with some of your statements. Maybe you could explain for the less well informed.

#1 not sure what your point is here. Is this a good thing for our engines?

#2 OK so maybe moaning at MP etc is a waste of time, but I understand that the fuel suppliers can supply better fuel for us, if there is enough demand or moaning done. Are you saying that we should do nothing? I understand that others (RYA etc..) seem to be taking a different view.

#3 this doesn't sound to good to me and doesn't sound like something we should just accept as okay. Have I picked you up wrong?

#4 I was told Calmac (heard 2nd hand - 2 sources) were trialing the fuel in their small ferries with lots of problems appearing i.e. sludge etc...... If as you say the "new" fuel is dodgy re SOLAS, then that suggests to me that all of us will have dangerous fuel on board re fire risk. Surely that in itself is a big issue that effects charter companies as well as loads of others? Is the fuel going to alter to meet the fire regs? I take it the the inland users are okay to have didgy fuel on board then. Hmmm that seems an odd situation.

#5 I am not sure what you mean.

#6 What engines in general will benefit?

I genuinely thought this is a bigger issue than it now seems. Speaking to others, they seem to think much the same as me so I am confused. What's the facts? Can we simply forget this as an issue because at the end of the day it's not going to effect any of us much. Is just going to be a case of adding a reasonably low cost additive to give us at least the same characteristics of the fuel we currently use i.e. normal red diesel.? If so great, then there's nothing to get worked up about. If on the otherhand the additive is going to cost a fortune, tanks need rebuilt for special drain taps and inspection features, filters need changed every few weeks then with respect, I think that is a problem.

Hopefully Latestarter1, you can give us the benefit of your knowledge on this, which i am sure we will all appreciate. I certainly will!
Click to expand...

I owe you a response however not enough hours in a day!

Let me go back to basics, life is all about being able to accomodate change, the subject of the change to virtually sulphur free fuel has appeared to have created hysteria, much dock talk and a field day for snake oil vendors.

Virtually zero sulphur fuel is with us and will not go away. The NRMM (Non Road Mobile Machinery) Directive makes it an offence to supply anything other than zero sulphur gas oil into that market, about 75%. In less than years time rail diesel emissions kick in and they will have to switch whch is predicted to take percentage to 85%.

As we are past peak oil production NOBODY in the Western World is investing in new oil refineries infrastructure is limited. Us boaters take ten pennyworth of bugger all in terms of gas oil volume. As road fuel and NRMM fuel are now aligned it made sense from a distribution point of view to use downgraded road fuel, however nobody took account of the RTFO Directive which introduced the organic FAME element into fuel.

What MDL are screwing around at makes no sense to me.........Gives people a false sense of security. We are moving towards RCD II due in 2014 if I remember, which means among other things, revised engine noise being one, the other is alignment with the U.S. on engine emissions which will be Tier III at that time, far tighter than we have today and with a potential fuel economy penalty of between 5 to 7%. Therefore we will be in the same position as NRMM market where it will be an offence to supply anything other than zero sulphur fuel ino our market.

In many places we already have no alternative to use of downgraded road fuel, potential penalties for fuel distrubutors suppling wrong fuel into NRMM maket and lack of spare storage capacity in the industry means that the further you are from Southampton the more likely you are to get stuff intended for NRMM market, just learn to live with it. All about cost and continuity of supply. Before anybody goes off about RCD II, consultation ENDED on this legislation in 2007.

Just a matter of updating fuel systems, yes the small FAME element does re-awaken dormant crud in your tanks, which I would suspect is the issue with CalMac. However for as long as people cling to old CAV style filters or think that Racor or Separ filters have some almost magical properties people will continue to have filter blocking issues. Problems with fuel oil contamination are not new, it has always been a watch out.

The oil industry nailed lubricity with ULSD and now zero sulphur fuels years ago, it is the snake oil vendors you need to watch out for.

56 Degee C fuel can hardly be called dangerous, SOLAS is 61 Degree C off the top of my head, and that will have to change.

Benifits, older engines tend to run sweeter and produce less start up smoke on the new fuel, downside is that some may struggle to re-start when hot.

It is a far smarter and better value added use of our time to understand the potential issues and adapt, rather than attempting to fight issues that cannot be changed.
 
Not sure the issue is with the low sulphur as was the case with older cars but more to do with the bio element promoting diesel bug. I believe premier marinas intend to sell bio free, low sulphur by mid this year.
 
There appears to be both an increased opportunity for the dreaded bug to grow in bio fuel, and also for the fuel to be more aggressive to fuel pipes and hoses. From my auto experience, this latter issue will only become a problem about 10% bio fuel mix. My BMW diesel says OK for 10% bio.

When I worked at Land Rover, we used to have a different fuel system spec for Brazil, due to the ethanol they used there. We had to use mainly stainless steel fuel pipes. the ethenol quickly detriorated the natural rubber hoses. Note, these were gasoline not diesel specs.
 
Diesel changes

Interesting that Jaguar \ Landrover and Lexus are expressing concerns in data
releases regarding injector problems with bio diesel.
Some of you may want some snake oil as you call it, I call it specislist chemical additives.
 
captainscott said:
Interesting that Jaguar \ Landrover and Lexus are expressing concerns in data
releases regarding injector problems with bio diesel.
Some of you may want some snake oil as you call it, I call it specislist chemical additives.
Click to expand...

are you actually a boat owner or just a snake oil salesman.
most of your input seems to be promoting your products
 
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