Delivery Skipper - real world!

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Wandering Star

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Now, I should know the answer to this but I don't! So can anyone advise?

If I want to advertise my services as a yacht (sailing) delivery skipper, either as an individual or working for an established company, do I legally need a commercially endorsed YM qualification or will a plain vanilla YM qualification suffice? I have ample sea time and transocean experience and did make a professional delivery several years ago but things may have changed since?

I know it's both desireable and adviseable to be commercially endorsed, but is it a legal requirement?

Brian.
 
Yes, but its not too difficult, even for you.

You need to have a medical, and they might put restrictions on it based on health. For example to go more than 150nm from a safe haven, you need another qualified person on board.

Then do the PPR exam which I just posted about earlier today. Cost £37.20

EDIT: You also need to have done a Sea Survival course.
 
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I'm not sure there's anything stopping anyone being paid for delivering a boat under a private arrangement. It'd be a pretty casual owner who picked some random Joe off the street though, and their insurers might not be too keen either.

Add an 'employed', even if virtually unpaid, crew or paying passengers, and the venture becomes commercial in a sense the MCA care about.
 
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Simondjuk said:
I'm not sure there's anything stopping anyone being paid for delivering a boat under a private arrangement.
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I think the term "valuable consideration" is the one used these days, which means anything over and above repayment of out of pocket expenses means it's working for money so needs commercial endorsement.

PI insurance would be advisable as well. Gentlemen's agreements don't seem to work these days, owners or insurers too quick to blame the skipper for any damage they hadn't noted before.
 
GrahamM376 said:
I think the term "valuable consideration" is the one used these days, which means anything over and above repayment of out of pocket expenses means it's working for money so needs commercial endorsement.

PI insurance would be advisable as well. Gentlemen's agreements don't seem to work these days, owners or insurers too quick to blame the skipper for any damage they hadn't noted before.
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Yes and No.

If you advertise in the UK for delivery work in the UK or on UK registered vessels. Yes.

Any where else No.

UK law aplies only in UK or on Uk vessel.
You may need other requirments in other countries.
Eg in US a Uk qualification is not valid.

RYA qualification may be acepted by many owners and insurance providers as required proof of expierience and knowladge even though not valid in country or on flag state of vessel. So still worth while.
 
Going by the difference of opinion here i'd say phone the MCA (they are very helpful)

I believe the answer is NO.

If the vessel is being operated as a commercial operation then it requires coding and the skipper, if chartered with a skipper, needs a commercial endorsement as he will be responsible for paying passengers.

If the vessel is not being operated as a commercial enterprise then any one can skipper it with the permission of the owner, subject to the requirements of the insurance company.

I've done many deliveries for private non commercial vessels as a non YM, and YM and I only needed the commercial bit if the vessel was coded and at the time operating with paying passengers.

Even if you are paid it doesn't make the vessel commercial, commercial is for profit or more than reasonable running costs incurred in the journey. You being paid means you may be held responsible for any costs/damage if you haven't complied with what the insurance company wants, you are a business and getting your own insurance is not a bad idea, the insurance company will then want to know your level of experience and may (they didn't for me) require a level of qualification.

So NO from me, but after reading the comments above a phone call might be a good idea for your own peace of mind. The commercial bits are useful, especially the swimming pool liferaft seas survival part. Good luck it's hard work and you won't get rich, it's good to brush up on your maintenance skills if you can! many jobs involved some repairs or work on the boat.
 
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Wandering Star said:
Now, I should know the answer to this but I don't! So can anyone advise?

If I want to advertise my services as a yacht (sailing) delivery skipper, either as an individual or working for an established company, do I legally need a commercially endorsed YM qualification or will a plain vanilla YM qualification suffice? I have ample sea time and transocean experience and did make a professional delivery several years ago but things may have changed since?

I know it's both desireable and adviseable to be commercially endorsed, but is it a legal requirement?

Brian.
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Contact Dougstormforce of these forums, he keeps a very close watch on regs & would be one of the few I'd trust with an answer.
 
Thanks for all the answers, It seems to me there's enough conflict between the answers to justify my befuddled understanding!

MoodyNick knows me well enough to understand why I was asking the question! However I'm not sure his answer was correct - but it may have been, thats what I'm trying to determine.

I've taken AlanT's advice and PM'd Dougstormforce to ask for his advice since his credentials seem to point to someone who would have the experience to give a definitive answer and I'll apologise to all those people (including Nick) whose advice was correct after all.

Thanks again.
 
Doug will give you a good answer, and so could I if I could be arsed to wade through all the paperwork.

If you go for it without Commercial endorsement, you will be touting around a marketplace loaded with skippers who do have all the paperwork and insurance, so tough to get any decent work. Secondly, the delivery companies will not touch you with a barge pole.

Remember the delivery skipper of a mobo from Hamble to Weymouth who crashed into the Bridge WCM? Left his mate at the helm on auto pilot, and cost the pair of them £300k in damages.

Not worth taking any chances IMO.
 
moodyNick said:
Doug will give you a good answer, and so could I if I could be arsed to wade through all the paperwork.

If you go for it without Commercial endorsement, you will be touting around a marketplace loaded with skippers who do have all the paperwork and insurance, so tough to get any decent work. Secondly, the delivery companies will not touch you with a barge pole.

Remember the delivery skipper of a mobo from Hamble to Weymouth who crashed into the Bridge WCM? Left his mate at the helm on auto pilot, and cost the pair of them £300k in damages.

Not worth taking any chances IMO.
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Yep, I'm considering dropping my commercial endorsement.
Not prepared to risk losing all my hard earned property, should somone make a claim.
That's what happened in your £300k example, when they were sued by the insurance company IIRC.
 
jerrytug said:
Does a commercial endorsement make you liable for mistakes you would not be liable for with a plain YM?
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No - it just means a doctor thinks you're unlikely to keel over and have been on a sea survival course (and now done the RYA's exam). A skipper is a master of the vessel regardless of qualification.
 
Neil_Y said:
Going by the difference of opinion here i'd say phone the MCA (they are very helpful)

I believe the answer is NO.

If the vessel is being operated as a commercial operation then it requires coding and the skipper, if chartered with a skipper, needs a commercial endorsement as he will be responsible for paying passengers.

If the vessel is not being operated as a commercial enterprise then any one can skipper it with the permission of the owner, subject to the requirements of the insurance company.

I've done many deliveries for private non commercial vessels as a non YM, and YM and I only needed the commercial bit if the vessel was coded and at the time operating with paying passengers.

Even if you are paid it doesn't make the vessel commercial, commercial is for profit or more than reasonable running costs incurred in the journey. You being paid means you may be held responsible for any costs/damage if you haven't complied with what the insurance company wants, you are a business and getting your own insurance is not a bad idea, the insurance company will then want to know your level of experience and may (they didn't for me) require a level of qualification.

So NO from me, but after reading the comments above a phone call might be a good idea for your own peace of mind. The commercial bits are useful, especially the swimming pool liferaft seas survival part. Good luck it's hard work and you won't get rich, it's good to brush up on your maintenance skills if you can! many jobs involved some repairs or work on the boat.
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You are correct.

The word "commercial" seems to get people in a spin and it's meaning is not always transferable between everyday use and various organisations.

As long as the owner of the vessel is not making profit from the journey he can ask anyone to move it for him.
 
Pete R said:
You are correct.

The word "commercial" seems to get people in a spin and it's meaning is not always transferable between everyday use and various organisations.

As long as the owner of the vessel is not making profit from the journey he can ask anyone to move it for him.
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That's my original understanding although I'm trying to clarify it's a correct understanding. Provided the boats owned by a third party I'm legally entitled to deliver her for the owner and charge for my services without a commercial endorsement. The issues with insurance etc are common sense which I'll address. The owner himself/herself isn't taking paying passengers so all should be ok and above board?

Cheers, Brian.
 
jerrytug said:
Does a commercial endorsement make you liable for mistakes you would not be liable for with a plain YM?
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Being commercial & paid for skippering, tends to involve more sailing with 'strangers', which may have an impact should anything go wrong. Liability, being a moot point, whatever happens.
 
Summer 2010 I became quite ill and had to find someone to deliver my boat back from Brixham to the Hamble. The marina guy suggested a well-know local sailor who did occasional deliveries. He wasn't around when I needed to get the train home, but I spoke to him on the phone and agreed the deal - which was half the cost of the big commercial guys and could be done sooner than they were available.

I didn't give any thought to insurance or liability or anything else. Once the boat was back on her mooring and the skipper and his mate were on their own train home, I got a text to say all was well. I then got emailed a clear account of the passage and the condition of my boat (and a compliment on how looked-after they found her and how sweet she was to sail, which was nice). I posted the cheque.

That was that. What's wrong with the world?
 
£700 and a call to Warsash will get you organised. Then get all the professional insurance for delivering a yacht or OK it with the boats insurance company and get it in writing.
 
marklucas said:
No - it just means a doctor thinks you're unlikely to keel over and have been on a sea survival course (and now done the RYA's exam). A skipper is a master of the vessel regardless of qualification.
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And even the 'keel over guarantee' is only as long as you are in his office! A couple of years back one of our glider tug pilots passed away suddenly just after take off. He had had his commercial aviation medical about a month previously.
 
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