Defra consultation - have you heard?

[Ivyblack]

I have heard that DEFRA are consulting EA stakeholders? about the EA navigations becoming a charity/trust with BW. It is supposed to happening in July sometime. Has anyone else heard this? Here is a link.
http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news/campaign_news/waterways_political_update



Seems that the IWA are completely behind it, I assume because they know that licence money from the Thames will be used to pay for the upkeep of BW ditches around the UK.
http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news/campaign_news/minister_signals_possible_bw_ea_merger

Who are Thames stakeholders? Assume it it the River User Groups??

Ivyblack

 

[byron]

Our resident investigators will now be on the case

 

[boatone]

As navigation is such a small part of the EA empire I think much will depend on the flood control risk side of things where the rivers are clearly a very different kettle of fish to the canals.

BW has a huge number of registered boats compared to the non tidal Thames - around 40,000 compared to 8,000 i think. That certainly makes them a serious threat as far as managing a licence regime and revenue collection is concerned.

On the other hand, the infrastructure of the river - locks , weirs, flood management etc is a very different set of disciplines and necessary for a far wider range of risk management than leisure navigation.

I suspect, as is more and more the case these days, we will have little say in these decisions. At the moment we have nothing more than conjecture to consider and it is only when the opportunity for input and reaction to specific proposals arises that we will be able to consider our views.

 

[Ivyblack]

That's fine, but will the outcome of July's "consultation" be the final decision? Don't suppose they'll be any referendum on the issue?

I guess I am just concerned about the standard of service (which isn't perfect, don't get me wrong) taking a dive as a result our money not being spent or "ringfenced" for the the same river.

We still don't even know who has been invited to the consultation??

IB

 

[Gumpy]

I have heard that DEFRA are consulting EA stakeholders? about the EA navigations becoming a charity/trust with BW. It is supposed to happening in July sometime. Has anyone else heard this? Here is a link.
http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news/campaign_news/waterways_political_update



Seems that the IWA are completely behind it, I assume because they know that licence money from the Thames will be used to pay for the upkeep of BW ditches around the UK.
http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news/campaign_news/minister_signals_possible_bw_ea_merger

Who are Thames stakeholders? Assume it it the River User Groups??

Ivyblack

I will be one of those attending next week on behalf of the DBA
I know the new authority may well not be popular in some places, but think of it another way:


A NEW body not BW or EA charged with managing the navigation seems like it could be a good idea in this era of severe cutbacks. Dont kid yourselves that navigation wont get cut just because its only 1% of defra spending.
Navigation and flood control could well be separated as they are on many other rivers with one body taking on navigation and the EA doing flood control.

BW has a large property portfolio that could well provide much funding for waterways.

As for ringfencing don't make me laugh didn't you all agree to a licence increase for the Thames a couple of years ago to enlarge locks, where did that money go? At least with an independent third sector body your money wouldn't have been taken by the treasury.......

Might post some news after the meeting in a week or so......

 

[Ivyblack]

quote: "BW has a large property portfolio that could well provide much funding for waterways."

Surely, BW's property portfolio is being exploited as much as possible by BW already??

Anyone got any comments on how well National Trust navigations work? River Wey?
I assume that this is this the management regime the government is proposing?
IB

 

[Gumpy]

BW are not allowed to use the property for mainatainance so as yet its full potential is untapped.
There has been nothing released as yet on the new plan, there is plenty about taking BW into the 3rd sector but not how it will work with EA as a new venture. This will be released at the meeting I believe.

 

[TrueBlue]

Being a long term cynic, I think the devil will be in the detail.

EA in the Thames region is "special" as the locks are all manned, with only part of the lock keepers duties being allocated to help boaters. To my mind their duties would be difficult to split out as the weir keeping responsibilities cannot realistically be split from being on site.

Perhaps many, many years hence the weirs could be automated - but I can't see that happening in my or anyone else's lifetime. It's not just a matter of lifting up a gate when told to. I don't think the Management really understand that point. Anyway why ruin one of this Island Realm's principal potential tourist attractions?

However, there is scope for attracting a number of mugs - umm - volunteers to carry out some of the less critical tasks; bank clearance, tree felling and so on.

Hmmmm

 

[oldgit]

Perhaps many, many years hence the weirs could be automated

Just out of interest are thier any other rivers in the UK other than the Thames where the weirs are not fully automated ?

 

[Ivyblack]

Still confused by the fact that BW are not allowed to use income from their property to pay for maintenance.
Where does the income from their commercial property go then? Back to the Treasury? Surely not, as it would be a waste of time for the treasury/Defra to then pay BW back their annual grant? I can't imagine the treasury/Defra would allow BW to store money either.

Oldgit, your question ref the weirs. I think the weirs on the Wey are operated manually by the Trust - hence my question on how well this works?

IB

 

[boatone]

Where does the income from their commercial property go then? Back to the Treasury? Surely not, as it would be a waste of time for the treasury/Defra to then pay BW back their annual grant? I can't imagine the treasury/Defra would allow BW to store money either.

Understanding the various machinations of financial jiggery pokery that take place within and around government departments is probably way beyond our (or anyone elses) ken

I seem to remember that local authorities that sold houses off were not allowed to spend the money they raised but had to sit on it ?

The issue that seems to me to be the most contentious will be how they would intend to split weir keeping and locking duties and under which jurisdiction. Unlike the canal system, the rivers have major implications for flood control/risk and I cant immediately see any sense in combining a serious infrastructure responsibility with what is otherwise predominantly a leisure facility.

 

[boatone]

Anyone got any comments on how well National Trust navigations work? River Wey?
I assume that this is this the management regime the government is proposing?
IB

Not sure i really understand the question.

I boated on the River Wey for several years and found the management pretty good. Seemed to me it was run just like any other National Trust property with significant income from moorings on top of visitor income at the Dapdune Wharf project from where it is managed.
There are np lock- keepers (all locks self wind) except for the point of entry from the Thames at Weybridge. Annual and visitors licences operate similarly to the Thames.

What we clearly dont know at present is just which part(s) of the EA Rivers operation are being considered for inclusion in any new super amalgamation.

 

[Gumpy]

AFAIK BW have to reinvest or use it for capital projects so no maintenance.

Another non automated river is the Nene they even have to tie back the doors (gates) there when its in flood.
Is the Medway Automatic?

Also the Trent, Seven and Soar but I believe that all of these have fixed weirs.

There is no magical tie between lock keepers and weirs, several places in the Anglian region one authority owns the navigation, the weir/lock keeper is employed by EA and the navigation authority then pay for his services.

 

[Gumpy]

What we clearly dont know at present is just which part(s) of the EA Rivers operation are being considered for inclusion in any new super amalgamation.

Only the Navigation parts from what I have seen, flood control will stay with EA.

 

[boatone]

Only the Navigation parts from what I have seen, flood control will stay with EA.

So - perhaps licensing and registration, leisure promotion activities etc go to the new 'authority', whilst river upkeep, locks and weirs engineering, etc stay with the EA and they receive a financial contribution from the new authority towards any work which, whilst essential for flood control, may benefit the leisure sector?

Now, if this all comes about, who do you think the key people in the 'NEW' authority are likely to be - ex BW or ex EA - and what might be the medium to long term implications for boats with deeper drafts than narrow boats?

 

[Gumpy]

As for who the new managemant might be no one knows as yet (well not the public).
Dredging is something that is high on my personal agenda I do it all the time with the bottom of my barge even on the Thames.

 

[boatone]

As for who the new managemant might be no one knows as yet (well not the public).
Dredging is something that is high on my personal agenda I do it all the time with the bottom of my barge even on the Thames.

My question was very much tongue in cheek - we will wait and see.

As for dredging, I fear we will be out of luck except for routine depth control in key spots such as lock cuts and prime fairway. Dredging is expensive, needs consent to dredge, needs somewhere to transport to and deposit the dredge.

So, if its deep enough for 40,000 narrow boats what's the chance of action to assist the deeper draft percentage of a mere 8,000 cruisers?

 

[TrueBlue]

So, if its deep enough for 40,000 narrow boats what's the chance of action to assist the deeper draft percentage of a mere 8,000 cruisers?

Much as I want more visitors and users on the River, the thought of 40,000 LTTTs descending (or even ascending) on "our" patch of water makes me feel very ill.

600 in bulk in late August will be sufficient challenge for the time being - thank you very much. I will ask the organisers if they could cause some turbulence when they leave Beale Park; that might dredge that length a bit?

 

[boatone]

Much as I want more visitors and users on the River, the thought of 40,000 LTTTs descending (or even ascending) on "our" patch of water makes me feel very ill.

600 in bulk in late August will be sufficient challenge for the time being - thank you very much. I will ask the organisers if they could cause some turbulence when they leave Beale Park; that might dredge that length a bit?

You and me, both, Mike ! In fact, my stats were a bit wrong. Just been looking at the BW Annual Report and Accounts for 2009/10 and there are a little over 35,000 individual boat licences issued with an average take of around £460 each plus another few hundred in Scotland.
The introduction to the report sheds some light on the idea of becoming a Charitable Trust.
You can find the report (all 90 odd pages of it !) on the web:
http://www.britishwaterways.co.uk/media/documents/Annual_Report_and_Accounts_2009-10.pdf

Incidentally, if I happen to be Beale Park way at the end of August will you be available for rafting or will you be amongst the inner sanctum ?

 

[TrueBlue]

Incidentally, if I happen to be Beale Park way at the end of August will you be available for rafting or will you be amongst the inner sanctum ?

Heavens to Murgatroyd! - I'm not an IWA member and don't go to rallies or shows as a rule, so I'll be in mufti.
I've not signed up for the whole weekend, so won't be in the queue, but expect to be able to find a mooring, in which case you'll be very welcome to raft up. I've got a couple of balloon fenders (blue of course) somewhere. I may take a trusty dinghy with me for emergencies.

FWIW I was impressed with the quality of the organisation at the recent meeting and know the whole event will be well organised as well as having a lot beer and boaty things. My immediate mooring neighbour will be in the inner sanctum as he has one of those DB thingys; lucky poo!
If the weather holds and there's enough water it should be great fun.