Defending their honour.

[Shaz77]

If we're honest we all experience cognitive dissonance at some point - it's part of the learning process.

People deal with it in different ways, you can re-think your assumptions or beliefs, maybe even change them, or you can attempt to ignore or invalidate any information that conflicts with those beliefs - most entrenched people choose the latter. The emotional discomfort caused by cognitive dissonance is also compounded by behaviour that contradicts what one believes or knows to be true.

I think it is also tied to the aging process, older people are more likely to be resistant to new information as they have a legacy of behaviours, beliefs, and life decisions that are based on old information - including accumulated personal experience. Old stuff feels inherantly more comfortable than something new - whether its a physical item or an idea.

For example, those who were used to the heavily built cruisers of the 70s, and who formed their opinions around the '79 Fastnet, are of course going to hold the (at the time correct) analysis as gospel, and will be reluctant to change their minds - particularly if they have invested heavily in that belief. They will also successfully pass those beliefs onto a proportion of the following generation. New tech usually is a bit flakey at first until the teething problems are ironed out - in the adoption phase, the problems encountered provide more than enough ammo for doubling down and forming arguments to support resistance to change. People usually concentrate on the minutia, increase their relative importance, and ignore the big picture (e.g. skegs or keel-stepped masts).

The cognitive dissonance bites when Sunfast 3300s, j 99s or First 30s succeed at offshore racing, or when "soap dishes" survive and win the '98 Sydney Hobart (on handicap). AWBs cross oceans regularly, and appear in all corners of the world - HR is producing boats which have many of the features of AWBs, but still sell their range as "Hallberg-Rassy bluewater yachts" ... which they are. I doubt anyone would discount a centre cockpit HR44 as a yacht to sail the oceans on. I know someone who ripped the skeg off his HR36, delaminating the hull and leading to an interior-removal for repairs - all they did was turn sharply to avoid rocks and the skeg took an impact from the side.

I feel the inner conflict, but things move on ... the old heavy boats of last century will eventually dissappear from the market completely, the AWBs of today will be the MABs of tomorrow, and we'll have a new set of "floating caravans" to deride, but people won't stop successfully crossing oceans.

As for the OP ....

LiFePo4 is a fantastic technology, lighter, more usable capacity, faster charging, and with a more stable output voltage under load. On the downside, it can't be charged when cold without heating elements, it will give off nasty gasses if damaged, and it is far more complex than LA batteries to charge and store. But we are not far away from a lead acid battery phase out due to the lead content. Many products containing lead have already been banned or modified - Lead acid batteries are on the chopping block and it's just a matter of time.

On the chopping block. Funny how General motors, Ford's, Volkswagon, Toyota and most others have still failed to find a suitable replacement, and fit LA as original equipment.
If I had shares in LA batteries I would be hanging on for another decade.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

It's a pipedream at the moment. Spare boat cash goes on sails....

As it is for most. You do at least have a light, easily driven boat though. Perfect, though ideally you’d lose the lead on the bottom and fit yourself some decent stabilisers.

 

[flaming]

On the chopping block. Funny how General motors, Ford's, Volkswagon, Toyota and most others have still failed to find a suitable replacement, and fit LA as original equipment.
If I had shares in LA batteries I would be hanging on for another decade.

So what? LA's do the job just fine for starter motors. Hell, even my EVs have them to run the 12V stuff. Does the job and is cheap.

But marine batteries are a little different. Demands are different, usage patterns are different. I haven't gone that way yet, but I'd certainly look at it the next time I need a new battery.

It's like every new tech... I remember when the iphone first came out.... Mate of mine in tech got one of the very first ones. Told us all about it in the pub with all the enthusiasm of an early adopter. Bunch of people saying almost exactly what you just did but about iphones. "If you have to say so much, to try so hard to justify it, it can't be that good".

Well... We all know how that turned out....

If you're interested in anything "new" I've generally found the people who've tried it to be a better source of information than people vocally telling you that it won't work, but haven't tried it....

Think of all the things in sailing that have been ridiculed on these forums when they were introduced.

Laminate sails (they last 10 minutes and go mouldy)
Chartplotters (You'll be lost when it goes down)
Dynema (It'll UV degrade and fail)
Carbon masts (They'll explode when hit by lightning was my particular favourite)

And I'm sure you could think of many more.

But yeah, when I need a new battery, it'll be the experiences of those who have fitted them that will be of interest.

But thanks for bringing it to my attention.

 

[flaming]

As it is for most. You do at least have a light, easily driven boat though. Perfect, though ideally you’d lose the lead on the bottom and fit yourself some decent stabilisers.

I could have a hull called J, one called P and another called K....

 

[Tranona]

Reading loads of previous threads and this message most people have to write a book to justify their choice of lifepo3.
Nobody just nobody can simply say in a few simple words
"there good aren't they"

That is because such people think about what they are doing, look at the available evidence and come to a conclusion that is appropriate to their requirements.

Perhaps you should try that sometime.

 

[Tranona]

On the chopping block. Funny how General motors, Ford's, Volkswagon, Toyota and most others have still failed to find a suitable replacement, and fit LA as original equipment.
If I had shares in LA batteries I would be hanging on for another decade.

That is because they employ a large number of people who go through the process I described in post#25 and therefore specify batteries that are appropriate for their usage. If you went through the same process you would come to the same conclusion - lithium is not suitable for all applications and particularly not for frequent high current demands as in starting car engines. It is however suitable for other applications where fast recharge and slow discharge over a large number of cycles are needed. There is an added bonus that they are typically half the size and weight of other batteries with the same usable capacity. not surprising that many cruising boat owners choose them for their house supplies.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Simple one this. Those with Lithium life po4 on board will write pages and pages defending their honour and those with Lead Acid onboard don't give a monkeys. Funny that.

Welcome back Shanemax, i see you're still trolling.

 

[geem]

Reading loads of previous threads and this message most people have to write a book to justify their choice of lifepo3.
Nobody just nobody can simply say in a few simple words
"there good aren't they"

Lifepo3

 

[PaulRainbow]

Lifepo3

I've got the later ones, LifePO4

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I've got the later ones, LifePO4

The 3’s are one cell short of a picnic. I’m sure we can think of something else in the same state.

 

[Shaz77]

That is because such people think about what they are doing, look at the available evidence and come to a conclusion that is appropriate to their requirements.

Perhaps you should try that sometime.

I honestly think that a battery that needs a complicated control unit, just to keep it safe and where the control unit usually fails before the cells is massive progress.

 

[PaulRainbow]

I honestly think that a battery that needs a complicated control unit, just to keep it safe and where the control unit usually fails before the cells is massive progress.

Any evidence to support this claim ?

 

[applebadger]

I honestly think that a battery that needs a complicated control unit, just to keep it safe and where the control unit usually fails before the cells is massive progress.

Lead acid batteries have had complex control circuits for years; alternator regulators, battery chargers, solar controllers etc.

Lifepo4 batteries have a BMS but if it fails and the attached charge sources stick to their voltages as they should, the battery won’t blow up like so many silly people think it will. Holding a 13v nominal lifepo4 at 14.4v isn’t a safety issue; it’ll harm the longevity of the battery and it’ll lose capacity quicker, but that’s it. Much like under or overcharging a lead battery.

 

[Buck Turgidson]

Well I've got one of those old heavy long keel boats but it's got a Lithium house battery. What does that make me?

 

[Blue Seas]

Well I've got one of those old heavy long keel boats but it's got a Lithium house battery. What does that make me?

You'll be absolutely fine with both, but make sure to remove any obsolete Baggywrinkles if you wish to taken seriously.

 

[melvynpatrick]

Reading loads of previous threads and this message most people have to write a book to justify their choice of lifepo3.
Nobody just nobody can simply say in a few simple words
"there good aren't they"

They’re

 

[ylop]

Many products containing lead have already been banned or modified - Lead acid batteries are on the chopping block and it's just a matter of time.

Were you planning to lick the insides of the batteries? The lithium might give you different perspective on polarity if you do!

 

[Neeves]

Reading loads of previous threads and this message most people have to write a book to justify their choice of lifepo3.
Nobody just nobody can simply say in a few simple words
"there good aren't they"

Of course they will not say that - its appalling English or spelling.

People who change ALL change from lead batteries, are intelligent and can spell.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

So what? LA's do the job just fine for starter motors. Hell, even my EVs have them to run the 12V stuff. Does the job and is cheap.

But marine batteries are a little different. Demands are different, usage patterns are different. I haven't gone that way yet, but I'd certainly look at it the next time I need a new battery.

It's like every new tech... I remember when the iphone first came out.... Mate of mine in tech got one of the very first ones. Told us all about it in the pub with all the enthusiasm of an early adopter. Bunch of people saying almost exactly what you just did but about iphones. "If you have to say so much, to try so hard to justify it, it can't be that good".

Well... We all know how that turned out....

If you're interested in anything "new" I've generally found the people who've tried it to be a better source of information than people vocally telling you that it won't work, but haven't tried it....

Think of all the things in sailing that have been ridiculed on these forums when they were introduced.

Laminate sails (they last 10 minutes and go mouldy)
Chartplotters (You'll be lost when it goes down)
Dynema (It'll UV degrade and fail)
Carbon masts (They'll explode when hit by lightning was my particular favourite)

And I'm sure you could think of many more.

But yeah, when I need a new battery, it'll be the experiences of those who have fitted them that will be of interest.

But thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Saildrives
Snubbers
wire less instruments
carbon fibre
aluminium and lightweight anchors

and if you read current threads peop[le still say dyneema is not UV resistant,

buy a bigger anchor than recommended

and

probably fibreglass (introduction before my time)

Jonathan

 

[Caladh]

Noooo…….you're all feeding the troll.