Declining numbers of Sailors

I, personally, think it's purely economic.
Millennials can't afford a house, never mind a boat.
My first house, in Reading, cost me £832, in 1967.
I wasn't able to byt a boat, until a bequest from an uncle, in 1972, allowed me to buy a Seal 22 for £3000. Previously I'd crewed for others, on the Solent racing scene.

My current boat, bought in 1990, from the builder, cost me £33K. Being the prototype it had plenty of deliberate mistakes, but the functional specification was correct and it has done me for the last 27 years, over about 40K nautical miles which is about twice round the world (I've never been out of European waters).
In the Eastern Mediterranean, most of the UK owner-cruisers I meet are over 70, the youngsters are all to be found in flotillas and chartering - two ND age peaks, about 28 and 50. Many of the older group are Scots, own boats in the UK, many wish they weren't saddled with their boats (costs and climate). The younger peak are generally non-owners, though many are either co-owners and most race. Many children in this group.
Far more younger cruiser-owners are Dutch, highly sociable, highly competent and many about to or just retired.
Lots of French, especially in the Aegean, highly sociable (if you're a French speaker), a wide age range from early 40's to 80s. I've even met a French member of the RYS.
Italians, like taxes, are always with us - most lemming-like cross the Ionian in August and September, lots of kids, wide wives and always losing anchors. Some are extremely cultured and repay a little cultivation (the oldest owner-cruiser I met was 87 and knew his wines, being Piedmontese). He referred to other Italian power-boat owners as "Roman Mafia".

So I'd say that the cruising scene in the EC is extremely live and growing.
In the UK I perceive an increasing sclerosis and find it only too easy to believe the boat-owning population is decreasing.
Attempted margins in the supply-side are exorbitant - it's cheaper, despite the fall in the £, for me to buy things in Germany, Greece, Italy and even France. Sweden is possibly more expensive than the UK (but moorings cheap) and Switzerland impossibly expensive (because of the value of the Swiss franc).
I suspect that, if we do commit Brexit, UK incomes will continue to fall as will boat-owning.
 
mjcoon said:
Younger does not mean younger than young! It means younger than us...

Mike.
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Disagree. Pushing 60 this year.. I bought my first yacht, a 1/4 ton Quartet age 30. That was from sailing dinghies since 17. There followed a series of boats, each one being a bit longer in the water (now 80 ft in two parts).
If people are now coming into owning boats in their late 40's, I think it boded ill for the industry and future.
 
@Flica
I don't think it is all about economics or affordability.
I realise that my location means that I can't speak for everyone, but at least up here you could buy and keep a boat for a tiny amount of money. The vast majority of moorings here cost nothing- just a few new shackles, riser etc every few years as required. Boats themselves are going for pennies- I saw a smart looking Co26 being given away for £2k last week.

The worrying thing is that people my age (mid 30s) just don't *want* to go sailing. They're not yearning for it and unable to afford it. I've seen a few theories about this, but I think that we have passed a tipping point now where the vast majority of people are virtually unaware of sailing and what it involves- they didn't grow up going out on an uncle's boat, for example- so it's just something you're vaguely aware of but unlikely to actually get involved in.
 
Kelpie said:
,,,,I've seen a few theories about this, but I think that we have passed a tipping point now where the vast majority of people are virtually unaware of sailing and what it involves- they didn't grow up going out on an uncle's boat, for example- so it's just something you're vaguely aware of but unlikely to actually get involved in.
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Funny you should say that, but it was a visit to SWMBO's uncle in the USA, and spending 3 days on his sailing boat that got us hooked.
 
Tranona said:
Still a bit more relaxed in Greece as flotillas are assumed to be under the control of a qualified person In some areas they are a big part of the tourist landscape so the authorities are tolerant. Many of the operators do, however offer training alongside the flotilla so the number of totally inexperienced is probably low.
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Not what it says in the latest Sunsail Brochure.
It clearly states that a minimum of Dayskipper or ICC must be had for the Greek Destinations Flotillas that I looked at. It certainly used to be the case that your previous experience was evaluated, previous holiday charter history was also taken in to account.
We had many a flotilla or club flotilla holiday in Greece and Turkey and our previous experience was accepted by Sunsail as sufficient proof of ability. The onus is now for the individual to meet the local state requirements which is an ICC.
I would say that our experience showed in comparison given the antics of the annual two week day kippered non boat owning charterers!
Seems I will have to be certified If I wish to go again............
 
TSB240 said:
Not what it says in the latest Sunsail Brochure.
It clearly states that a minimum of Dayskipper or ICC must be had for the Greek Destinations Flotillas that I looked at.
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They also offer "Flotilla Hero" packages which combine a flotilla holiday aith instruction leading to an ICC.
 
JumbleDuck said:
They also offer "Flotilla Hero" packages which combine a flotilla holiday aith instruction leading to an ICC.
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Not self skippered basically takes a week to do an ICC which could be done in a day and a night on your own boat back home!
Not for me thank you.
 
TSB240 said:
Not what it says in the latest Sunsail Brochure.
It clearly states that a minimum of Dayskipper or ICC must be had for the Greek Destinations Flotillas that I looked at. It certainly used to be the case that your previous experience was evaluated, previous holiday charter history was also taken in to account.
We had many a flotilla or club flotilla holiday in Greece and Turkey and our previous experience was accepted by Sunsail as sufficient proof of ability. The onus is now for the individual to meet the local state requirements which is an ICC.
I would say that our experience showed in comparison given the antics of the annual two week day kippered non boat owning charterers!
Seems I will have to be certified If I wish to go again............
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As ever with Greece not all operators have the same requirements because, although the principles are decided (or not) in Athens, the actual decisions are made by local Port Police. A brief visit to the liveaboard forum will show how variable this can be.

However there has indeed been a tightening generally hence the popularity of the instruction element in the latest offerings.
 
Kelpie said:
Can't you do a flotilla with zero experience?
And it sounds as thought the RYA courses side of things is doing OK, it's just that people do the course and then lots of them never sail again.
Some of the most active sailors I know are the ones who just bought a boat and got on with it. Conversely I know plenty people who have done a course or two and never set foot on a boat afterwards.
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i think as others have said it is increasingly difficult, certainly hard enough to find that a total beginner is likely to be dissuaded from trying.

Kelpie said:
@Flica
I don't think it is all about economics or affordability.
I realise that my location means that I can't speak for everyone, but at least up here you could buy and keep a boat for a tiny amount of money. The vast majority of moorings here cost nothing- just a few new shackles, riser etc every few years as required. Boats themselves are going for pennies- I saw a smart looking Co26 being given away for £2k last week.

The worrying thing is that people my age (mid 30s) just don't *want* to go sailing. They're not yearning for it and unable to afford it. I've seen a few theories about this, but I think that we have passed a tipping point now where the vast majority of people are virtually unaware of sailing and what it involves- they didn't grow up going out on an uncle's boat, for example- so it's just something you're vaguely aware of but unlikely to actually get involved in.
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that may be an issue, there may. E an attitude problem with it... upper middle class, expensive, posh stigma associated with it, and weird clubs full of pretentious people who aren't that keen on welcoming new comers is an attitude people here must be aware of at least being the stereotype of not the reality. Golf clubs are similar and also dwindling in numbers.

A contributing factor in the under fifties could well be that they work long hours, both partners usually working, then have childcare responsibilities that are more evenly spread than before and so "dad" no longer has time to do his thing and perhaps "mum" is more likely to have a say in what the family does and spends its money, so you need both parties to be enthusiastic. But the cheap flights that make charters in the med viable also mean you can easily spend that budget in a ski resort, mountain biking in the alps or on a sunny beach.

Interesting suggestion that people do courses then don't come back - that sounds like there is s non ownership model (charter, share etc) that should be ripe for making money on. But my experience in other areas is that it might also be that post course (or especially after time has passed too) people don't have the confidence... again sounds like a marketing opportunity for a good schools...
 
Tomahawk said:
Disagree. Pushing 60 this year.. I bought my first yacht, a 1/4 ton Quartet age 30. That was from sailing dinghies since 17. There followed a series of boats, each one being a bit longer in the water (now 80 ft in two parts).
If people are now coming into owning boats in their late 40's, I think it boded ill for the industry and future.
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By all means "disagree"; it was only a joke in the 1st place! Not that I understand the point you are making...

Mike.
 
Tomahawk said:
If people are now coming into owning boats in their late 40's, I think it boded ill for the industry and future.
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Is it though ?

If there are fewer new yachts being built ( not good for UK workers) it is likely that older sought after yachts will obtain premium prices. Also they will probably need upgrading with new bits and pieces and labour (good for UK workers) . Less demand for boats would probably mean lower marina prices with many swingers becoming marina dwellers. All in all, good news for most boat owners.

In the longer term, the boat industry and services will probably recede gradually with time for the trade and pleasure sailors to adapt.

The biggest loss maybe felt by younger generations not experiencing sailing at all along with other outdoor adventure, self sufficiency type pursuits. As we know, sailing teaches many things that cannot be replicated by computer games. Overcoming fear, self dependency etc etc . Unfortunately, our society puts the emphasis on academic achievement
where most questions can be answered almost immediately from the web . Everyone's got the answers now.

If everyone now has the answers , from an employers perspective I think I
would be more interested in employing a youngster with actual experience of the business and equally a good grounding in adventure type activities which give a good idea of the character of the applicant.

Perhaps, most important of all the full development of the individual for everyone's benefit.
 
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LONG_KEELER said:
The biggest loss maybe felt by younger generations not experiencing sailing at all along with other outdoor adventure, self sufficiency type pursuits.
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I think it can only get worse and it's not just sailing which is in decline. Outdoor adventure for many is a thing of the past. As a kid, entertainment was "playing out", making tree houses, dens etc and getting chased by the park keeper for riding bikes. Schools had annual camps and other outdoor activities, we could go on week adventure holidays orienteering, climbing, potholing etc. Cubs, Scouts, ATC etc. were also popular.

The generation who are now producing children grew up in a more indoor environment, with electronic toys and seem to want their children to grow up in a safer and more sterile environment. Many schools have stopped outdoor activities and adventure holidays either for fear of being sued for accidents or, they can't afford the insurance.
 
Throughout the summer, we visited a number of marinas (about 8) along the S Coast, between Chichester and Plymouth. Most of them were reasonably full, a couple were unsure as to whether they could accommodate us as they had so many permanent berths they weren't sure about whether they could squeeze in more than a couple visitors. Looks like there are plenty of boats still out there with owners willing to pay at the highest rate of consumption (i.e. marina berths).

Demographics was also quite interesting. The majority of people we saw on the pontoons were late forties to late sixties. We saw a 6.2m Beneteau Antares in Torquay which had a child at junior school age with parent on board. The other children we saw on-board looked like they were on their Grand Parents' boats. However, did see quite a few children in dinghies which was pleasing.

Declining number of sailors - probably not on the S Coast
Aging demographics - yes from my observations, although I don't know what the demographics were like 30 years ago.
 
RobF said:
Demographics was also quite interesting. The majority of people we saw on the pontoons were late forties to late sixties. We saw a 6.2m Beneteau Antares in Torquay which had a child at junior school age with parent on board. The other children we saw on-board looked like they were on their Grand Parents' boats. However, did see quite a few children in dinghies which was pleasing.
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I normally sail with a young crew member, and it's disappointing how few of a similar age we meet. I think there was only one last summer - a girl who was clearly having a blast cruising the west coast with Dad in their wayfarer. Apart from that, none. The few that we have met on other trips have almost all been with grandparents. I'm in my early 50s and I rarely meet people younger than me sailing.
 
JumbleDuck said:
I normally sail with a young crew member, and it's disappointing how few of a similar age we meet. I think there was only one last summer - a girl who was clearly having a blast cruising the west coast with Dad in their wayfarer. Apart from that, none. The few that we have met on other trips have almost all been with grandparents. I'm in my early 50s and I rarely meet people younger than me sailing.
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I agree, it is rare.
I had expected to have stopped being the youngest sailor I come across when cruising well before I was 30...
But when cruising I still find that I'm very much among the youngest, and still attract comments when I bring a cruising boat into a harbour. Just last year when I entered Yarmouth I got a round of applause from the boat opposite and a comment that my berthing was "very good for someone so young." I'm in my mid 30s.

Racing circles are completely different, at least amongst the crew, I'm starting to feel old in the pubs of Hamble when there's an event on.
 
flaming said:
Racing circles are completely different, at least amongst the crew, I'm starting to feel old in the pubs of Hamble when there's an event on.
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There is a delightful Flying Fifteen fleet at Kippford, every member of which seems to be long, long past retirement age. Bit of an exception, I suspect.
 
Somewhat conflicting statistics reported in YM (derived from BMF annual report). Turnover up 1.6% for industry as a whole. New yacht builds in UK down to 76 last year. However participants up from 300k to 500k (????)

Make of that what you will.

Also word on the block was that interest in under 40' yachts down at SIBS, but bigger boats up significantly as was MOBOs of similar size.
 
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