Deckhead fixings

[donm]

I would like to fit a handrail along the centreline of the boat but cannot fix through the deck from the outside - the hatch garage is covering the area and is very securely bedded/stuck/fixed.

Are there any good fixings that I can use from the inside?

Boat is Halmatic 30 and heavily laid up as follows -

1 layer 1 ounce CSM,
2 layers 2 ounce CSM,
2 layers 4mm Firet corematt,
3 layers 2 ounce CSM

Details taken from the build plans so sorry about the Imperial measures but boat is 45 years young!

 

[Poignard]

If you are determined to have overhead handrails, is there any reason why you could not have two handrails, one each side of the hatch garage and through-bolted?

A better arrangement, in my view was what I had on my Twister: a very strong shoulder height handrail each side, secured to the coachroof sides just above deck level.

Ps I am assuming you are talking about a handrail inside the boat. If you aren't, please ignore the above!

 

[donm]

If you are determined to have overhead handrails, is there any reason why you could not have two handrails, one each side of the hatch garage and through-bolted?

A better arrangement, in my view was what I had on my Twister: a very strong shoulder height handrail each side, secured to the coachroof sides just above deck level.

Ps I am assuming you are talking about a handrail inside the boat. If you aren't, please ignore the above!

Thanks but I already have them low down beneath the windows on the coachroof sides. I need something on the centreline. It all used to be fine but as I get older……………….

 

[Poignard]

Thanks but I already have them low down beneath the windows on the coachroof sides. I need something on the centreline. It all used to be fine but as I get older……………….

Understood but I still think two handrails would be better.

Hanging off something directly overhead means adopting an awkward posture, also you, or crewmembers, are likely to crack your heads on it.

 

[PCUK]

Stainless Jack nuts will do the trick.

 

[zoidberg]

You could consider fixing several of these to your deckhead....

....and passing a rail through the loops. Or a section of 2" rope, which would be gentler if headbutted.

Here's one source - Ropeyes - or make your own.

 

[Poignard]

You can now buy old London Underground strap hangers

 

[donm]

View attachment 186787

You can now buy old London Underground strap hangers

Nah - brings back memories of hours on the Tube

 

[Neeves]

Nah - brings back memories of hours on the Tube

So.... you are not serious then?

 

[ducked]

Maybe webbing (old seatbelt from a scrappie?) patches glued to the coachroof underside, with loops perhaps including hose sections, to take a rope line. Latter might need knots, sewing or glue to stop pull-through giving too much local slack.

20 to 180 quid a pop seems a bit much for those puck things, unless you MUST have carbon fibre.

If you MUST have carbon fibre maybe make carbon fibre patches, but I suppose you might be able to cut your head on them.

 

[donm]

Maybe webbing (old seatbelt from a scrappie?) patches glued to the coachroof underside, with loops perhaps including hose sections, to take a rope line. Latter might need knots, sewing or glue to stop pull-through giving too much local slack.

20 to 180 quid a pop seems a bit much for those puck things, unless you MUST have carbon fibre.

If you MUST have carbon fibre maybe make carbon fibre patches, but I suppose you might be able to cut your head on them.

Maybe webbing (old seatbelt from a scrappie?) patches glued to the coachroof underside, with loops perhaps including hose sections, to take a rope line. Latter might need knots, sewing or glue to stop pull-through giving too much local slack.

20 to 180 quid a pop seems a bit much for those puck things, unless you MUST have carbon fibre.

If you MUST have carbon fibre maybe make carbon fibre patches, but I suppose you might be able to cut your head on them.

Thanks, but the boat is fitted out with teak joinery and I have just enough to make another double handrail as long as I can find a way to fix it securely to the deckhead

 

[William_H]

Sideways rails might be a better option.
If you must have the rail in the center then it appears the only option is to glue the fittings to the under side of cabin roof. The way to do that would be a big patch of cloth. You fit countersunk screws through the cloth perhaps with big penny washers. Before glueing up. Carbon fibre would be best as it is the stiffest of the cloths available. The stiffness needed to avert the patch peeling off under load. The size of the patch and the thickness of the patch will determine the strength of the attachment. Put lots of filler around the screw heads to avert air bubbles under cloth. You need the screw heads and washers as low profile as possible.
I am thinking 5mm screws X 2 located to take the fittings you choose. (towel rail style I imagine) I am thinking a patch of carbon fibre about 10cms by 10 cms with 3 layers of CF epoxied on to very abraded roof. Perhaps 3 or 4 supports for rail. No engineering skills here just imagination. ol'will

 

[Poignard]

From Post #1 it can be seen that the coachroof is two layers of laminate with a core sandwiched between.

What you could do:

1. Decide where you want the fasteners for the handrail to be located.

2. Drill through the inner skin only and excavate the core around the hole, using an Allen key held in the chuck of a power drill.

3. Fill the void thus created with thickened epoxy, thereby adding strength by bonding the inner and outer skins.

4. Bond female Bighead fasteners to the inner skin, using thickened epoxy.

5. Fix the handrail to the Bigheads using machine screws in counterbored holes.

6. Hide the screw heads with matching wood plugs.

BigHead Female Threaded Collar Sighted; M5, M6, M8, M10 - Easy Composites

 

[ducked]

Thanks, but the boat is fitted out with teak joinery and I have just enough to make another double handrail as long as I can find a way to fix it securely to the deckhead

So good you quoted me twice, eh?

Maybe old bits of seatbelt arent quite the aesthetic, then, nor those CF puck things

Would it work as a mirror image of the outside teak grab rails on the coachroof top, assuming you have them? (even I have them, though the interior fit-out is pretty poor)

A unified, coherent, traditional design aesthetic, and you would I suppose use the same fastening holes (perhaps needing longer bolts or screws) avoiding additional holes in your boat

 

[gaylord694]

Get some fittings 3D printed that way you can have what you want

 

[justanothersailboat]

Poignard, your plan looks like a good one. Also thanks - so that's what those things are called!

One question though: isn't it tricky to get the epoxy plug to bond to the top layer, from underneath? I've only managed to do that from the top... maybe I didn't use enough thickener.

 

[Poignard]

Poignard, your plan looks like a good one. Also thanks - so that's what those things are called!

One question though: isn't it tricky to get the epoxy plug to bond to the top layer, from underneath? I've only managed to do that from the top... maybe I didn't use enough thickener.

You must get the bonding surface clean and abraded, and prime it with unthickened epoxy.

You'll find all the information you need here:

https://www.westsystem.com/app/uploads/2022/10/Fiberglass-Manual-2015.pdf

 

[donm]

From Post #1 it can be seen that the coachroof is two layers of laminate with a core sandwiched between.

What you could do:

1. Decide where you want the fasteners for the handrail to be located.

2. Drill through the inner skin only and excavate the core around the hole, using an Allen key held in the chuck of a power drill.

3. Fill the void thus created with thickened epoxy, thereby adding strength by bonding the inner and outer skins.

4. Bond female Bighead fasteners to the inner skin, using thickened epoxy.

5. Fix the handrail to the Bigheads using machine screws in counterbored holes.

6. Hide the screw heads with matching wood plugs.

BigHead Female Threaded Collar Sighted; M5, M6, M8, M10 - Easy Composites

Thanks - that looks like a starter as bonding the layers together with epoxy should give the security I'm looking for. I have fixed deck organisers in the past so know the construction is as shown on the plans and can clear the core out locally before placing the thickened epoxy "plug" and can probably support it as it sets using some tape. I will more than likely fix a handrail to a longer piece of teak so that I can get more fixings to the deckhead.
Thanks everyone for all the ideas - I will let you know how (if!) I get on.

 

[donm]

Thanks - that looks like a starter as bonding the layers together with epoxy should give the security I'm looking for. I have fixed deck organisers in the past so know the construction is as shown on the plans and can clear the core out locally before placing the thickened epoxy "plug" and can probably support it as it sets using some tape. I will more than likely fix a handrail to a longer piece of teak so that I can get more fixings to the deckhead.
Thanks everyone for all the ideas - I will let you know how (if!) I get on.

P.S. And the West Manual is excellent thanks!

 

[zoidberg]

and can clear the core out locally before placing the thickened epoxy "plug" and can probably support it

You're probably well aware, but a good way to 'placing' your thickened epoxy plugs is to use a previously-used caulking tube which once contained builders' sealant or adhesive, cleaned out and with a cheap caulking gun. It's useful to have a couple of spare plastic nozzles....

Edit: And it's OK to use a spare Allen or Hex key, but you'll for sure need that one 'tomorrow' for its proper purpose. A bent nail does the job, too, and cheaper.
If you're very Yorkshire/Aberdonian, you can bend it nearly straight again afterwards....