Deck core on older boats

For any boat to reach 50 years old and remain useable is testament to great design, material and manufacturing practises.

Keep in mind that manufacturers design a boat primarily for someone to pay and buy new. Few will then keep that boat for a lifetime, and those that do usually maintain it well.

Once several owners and decades in, the mantra of inspect, detect, correct applies to many aspects. Even if correction or repair is not always easy.
 
ducked said:
That said, I would also think it should be fixable, (though at least some of "the experts" in the freeboat/scrapboat field seem to disagree), I would perhaps attempt it differently, and I dont see where your evidence is for neglect, unless its based on the mere fact of core degradation, which would be a bit of rather circular self justifying logic.
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The evidence is the fact that the core is rotten and needs replacing.
The only way it can rot is if water gets into it, the only way that can happen is through leaking deck fittings or poor construction techniques.

In order to make a deck rotten the deck fitting would need to be leaking for a reasonable amount of time, should an owner spot it & fix it quickly, it would not cause that type of degradation. And if the deck was sealed by over size drilling, epoxy and then the correct size hole drilling, then it could leak for years without touching the core.
Hence, neglect.

But lets say a bloke in his mid twenties bought it new, he'd be over 75 now, so I'd say that's a pretty good useable lifespan for the boat! And someone buying a new boat isn't going to make the choice based on making repairs easier for the person who gets it free after they're dead!
 
Ceirwan said:
The evidence is the fact that the core is rotten and needs replacing.
The only way it can rot is if water gets into it, the only way that can happen is through leaking deck fittings or poor construction techniques.

In order to make a deck rotten the deck fitting would need to be leaking for a reasonable amount of time, should an owner spot it & fix it quickly, it would not cause that type of degradation. And if the deck was sealed by over size drilling, epoxy and then the correct size hole drilling, then it could leak for years without touching the core.
Hence, neglect.

But lets say a bloke in his mid twenties bought it new, he'd be over 75 now, so I'd say that's a pretty good useable lifespan for the boat! And someone buying a new boat isn't going to make the choice based on making repairs easier for the person who gets it free after they're dead!
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So EITHER a circular "It must have been neglected because the core was rotten/the core must be rotten because it was neglected" self-fulfilling argument based on a predjudice.

OR poor construction techniques had been used, which isnt what one would normally regard as neglect.

I would of course consider that poor construction techniques had a priori been used, since balsa core is a poor construction technique by definition, if you dont want a rotten balsa core, but thats a bit circular, self-fulfilling and predjudiced too.

Stepping outside the circular arguments, and without direct knowledge of why the core got wet, I would judge neglect from the general appearance of the boat, the owners description, its level of equipment, and from the opinion of the surveyor, and I dont see any evidence of it from these independent sources.

Rotten core seems to be its only significant fault. I would expect neglect to be generally more multifacetted, but I suppose its possible these owners had a specific blind spot about deck leaks.
 
ducked said:
So EITHER a circular "It must have been neglected because the core was rotten/the core must be rotten because it was neglected" self-fulfilling argument based on a predjudice.

OR poor construction techniques had been used, which isnt what one would normally regard as neglect.
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I don't understand why you're pushing back on this and trying to infer its some kind of circular argument.
There is water in the deck, at least according to the advert, which has caused the core to rot, delaminate, whatever.

Either its got in through a penetration in the deck, in way of a fitting or its got in due to some bad construction practice. (for example leaving the edge of the core material exposed at the edge of a panel) You talk as if rot is an inevitability, its not, and I've detailed the very simple steps you can take to prevent it already, which once done make it maintenance free.

Anyway, grumbling about design methods for boats that you get given for free seems to me to be a bit in poor taste.
If there was a market for heavy slabs of glass fibre with solid decks, then they would still build them, this boat has done 50 years of service, and with a few weekends of remedial work could probably do many more, I doubt the original owner (if still alive) is feeling short changed about it.
 
Ceirwan said:
I don't understand why you're pushing back on this and trying to infer its some kind of circular argument.
There is water in the deck, at least according to the advert, which has caused the core to rot, delaminate, whatever.

Either its got in through a penetration in the deck, in way of a fitting or its got in due to some bad construction practice. (for example leaving the edge of the core material exposed at the edge of a panel) You talk as if rot is an inevitability, its not, and I've detailed the very simple steps you can take to prevent it already, which once done make it maintenance free.

Anyway, grumbling about design methods for boats that you get given for free seems to me to be a bit in poor taste.
If there was a market for heavy slabs of glass fibre with solid decks, then they would still build them, this boat has done 50 years of service, and with a few weekends of remedial work could probably do many more, I doubt the original owner (if still alive) is feeling short changed about it.
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You may if the rot and delamination is localised and a small area get away with a few weekends but if it's extensive then it's a big job and likely to be beyond many that would be attracted to a small free boat. It would also not be within the budget of them either especially if in the UK as it would need to be done under cover or at best in the summer. Silk purse out of a sows ear springs to mind.
 
Well its a free boat, as the saying goes, no such thing!
And given its price is free right now, probably any repair won't return the money it costs to do as there's just no market for that sort of boat anymore. Kind of sad, but its where we are.
 
Ceirwan said:
I don't understand why you're pushing back on this and trying to infer its some kind of circular argument.
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Easy.

I'm "pushing back" on this because I'm disagreeing with you.

If you reflect on why you are "pushing back" on this, when you admitted to repeating yourself and said the discussion had "run its course" several posts ago (though, TBF, its not been entirely unproductive since) some understanding may come.

I''m implying its a circular argument because the argument you are making is circular.

I'm also slightly motivated to defend the owners of this exemplar boat (and, by circular argument inevitability extension, ALL owners of boats showing core degradation) from the a priori evidence-free-guilty-until-impossibly-proved-innocent charge of neglect, which I think is unfair. Pretty noble of me, but its difficult to be entirely cynical all the time.

To me "neglect" implies that some obvious preventative action was not taken, and I'm unclear how this could apply to a deck leak that was not caused by an action of the owner, since such a leak would (and probably could) not be detected until it had done significant damage.

I suppose maybe a screening program using moisture detectors (how cheap, reliable and precise are these? Not very, I'm betting) could detect a wet deck before it rots, but even then the water would already be in there, and couldnt be dried out without extreme measures.
 
ducked said:
Easy.

I'm "pushing back" on this because I'm disagreeing with you.

If you reflect on why you are "pushing back" on this, when you admitted to repeating yourself and said the discussion had "run its course" several posts ago (though, TBF, its not been entirely unproductive since) some understanding may come.

I''m implying its a circular argument because the argument you are making is circular.

I'm also slightly motivated to defend the owners of this exemplar boat (and, by circular argument inevitability extension, ALL owners of boats showing core degradation) from the a priori evidence-free-guilty-until-impossibly-proved-innocent charge of neglect, which I think is unfair. Pretty noble of me, but its difficult to be entirely cynical all the time.

To me "neglect" implies that some obvious preventative action was not taken, and I'm unclear how this could apply to a deck leak that was not caused by an action of the owner, since such a leak would (and probably could) not be detected until it had done significant damage.

I suppose maybe a screening program using moisture detectors (how cheap, reliable and precise are these? Not very, I'm betting) could detect a wet deck before it rots, but even then the water would already be in there, and couldnt be dried out without extreme measures.
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I think you have the whole thing out of perspective. A cored deck is the common solution because it is a better solution than a solid deck. The possible moisture ingress doesn't outway the massive benefits of stiffness and lightness that simply cannot be achieved with a solid deck.
 
geem said:
I think you have the whole thing out of perspective. A cored deck is the common solution because it is a better solution than a solid deck. The possible moisture ingress doesn't outway the massive benefits of stiffness and lightness that simply cannot be achieved with a solid deck.
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You do all right till you say better. It's just a different solution. No good telling someone who has, or may be buying, a boat with a questionable deck he has massive benefits when it could lead to the boat being scrapped.

Looking at old boats delamination is one of the most common problems you see - I think it is probably true that most owners of these would love to have discrete encapsulated reinforcement, deck beams or a heavier lay up.

.
 
doug748 said:
You do all right till you say better. It's just a different solution. No good telling someone who has, or may be buying, a boat with a questionable deck he has massive benefits when it could lead to the boat being scrapped.

Looking at old boats delamination is one of the most common problems you see - I think it is probably true that most owners of these would love to have discrete encapsulated reinforcement, deck beams or a heavier lay up.

.
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But no builder since the late 70s has done that and the number of deck problems is pretty limited. Otherwise it would be all over forums like this and it isnt
 
doug748 said:
geem said:
I think you have the whole thing out of perspective. A cored deck is the common solution because it is a better solution than a solid deck. The possible moisture ingress doesn't outway the massive benefits of stiffness and lightness that simply cannot be achieved with a solid deck.
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No it isnt. This is Ducked. You dont seem to be responding specifically to my last post, so I wonder why you quoted it. Instead you are reiteratng the "whole thing" argument (cored decks good, solid decks bad) that surely by this point in the thread could do without repeatng. Since we are doing repititon, though, I'll repeat that its mostly balsa core I find offensive. Close cell non-biodegradable foam doesn't seem so bad.
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As doug748 points out, "cored deck good" isnt a very convincing statement if you happen to have a bad deck core, as many older boats do.

Apologies for the formatting oddness, which tags part of my reply above with doug748's ID. Might be my dodgy laptop, or maybe some obscure editing artefact on the platform has allowed me to screw things up without trying at all
 
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ducked said:
As doug748 points out, "cored deck good" isnt a very convincing statement if you happen to have a bad deck core, as many older boats do.

Apologies for the formatting oddness. Might be my dodgy laptop, or maybe some obscure editing artefact on the platform has allowed me to screw things up without trying at all
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Fix it and move on. Its still better than a solid deck
 
Deck Core Drying Idea

  1. Drill small holes in the wet area of the deck into the core
  2. Insert two or three pre-soaked just germinating seeds of the angiosperm species of your choice into each hole
  3. Let nature take its course.
  4. When the resulting plants are all very dead, your internal deck structure should be pretty dry

You'd probably want relatively small seeds of a drought-tolerant species, but the optimum choice might require some research. Combinations of species might have benefit.

Probably only beneficial if you are going to then inject glue, itself generally regarded as a fairly half assed procedure. (but maybe not with the foaming epoxies mentioned below). If you are going to cut open the deck anyway there perhaps isnt much point in pre-drying it.

This might not work for wet-not-rotten balsa since I dont know if rootlets can penetrate that. Testing this might be a criterion for species selection. Probably wouldnt work with much salt present either, but I'd think the threat here is largely fresh water, since salt water would discourage rot and be less subject to freezing.

Halophytes (which also tend to be xerophytes) might be useful but I doubt their seeds are commercially available.Maybe Spartina sp. which have been used for dune stabilisation.

https://www.nrcs.usda.gov/plantmaterials/njpmcpg13933.pdf

With delaminating foam I would think rootlets should track (and dry) the path of delamination, (though there might not be enough moisture to sustain them) and in this case I would think subsequent injection of low viscosity epoxy might be quite effective.
 
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doug748 said:
Thanks. I will use that line when I am selling it and let you know how I get on.
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Why don't you fix it? Have you seen the foaming epoxy you can now get? Useful for local repairs in cored decks. I used some in my rudder when I drilled some inspection holes to check the welds on the tangs. It's like using crappy builders foam but it's really good stuff. Hard and impervious to moisture once cured
 
geem said:
Why don't you fix it? Have you seen the foaming epoxy you can now get? Useful for local repairs in cored decks. I used some in my rudder when I drilled some inspection holes to check the welds on the tangs. It's like using crappy builders foam but it's really good stuff. Hard and impervious to moisture once cured
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Its not worth it mate, some people will always stay stuck in the past, despite it being around 50 years since production boats came with solid decks, apparently builders have got it all wrong all these years. Some people to this day still think that carbureted cars are better than fuel injected ones, its just the way of the world.

And maybe I'd feel the same way if I was only interested in free hand me down boats.

At the end of the day, naval architects and builders are going to pay more attention to what people paying for new boats want rather than problems resulting from owner neglect 50+ years down the line.
 
Ceirwan said:
Its not worth it mate, some people will always stay stuck in the past, despite it being around 50 years since production boats came with solid decks, apparently builders have got it all wrong all these years. Some people to this day still think that carbureted cars are better than fuel injected ones, its just the way of the world.

And maybe I'd feel the same way if I was only interested in free hand me down boats.

At the end of the day, naval architects and builders are going to pay more attention to what people paying for new boats want rather than problems resulting from owner neglect 50+ years down the line.
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It's not just new boats. Mine was built in 1980. Airex cored hull and deck. Done well, it's an excellent way to build. It's more expensive than spraying chopped strand into a mould so not many modern boats build the hull in core but decks have been core for what feels like ever.
Even Island Packet, that make a big marketing thing of their hand laid heavy layup sold hull (BS if you ask me) use balsa core decks.
 
geem said:
Why don't you fix it? Have you seen the foaming epoxy you can now get? Useful for local repairs in cored decks. I used some in my rudder when I drilled some inspection holes to check the welds on the tangs. It's like using crappy builders foam but it's really good stuff. Hard and impervious to moisture once cured
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do you have a link or recommend a product (foaming epoxy) or should I just google
 
I don't think I would ever want a boat with a solid deck. Because it would either be tiny enough to be a big step down for me, or it would be a topheavy, overweight slug that would be less fun to sail than an otherwise identical boat with a lighter weight and a lower centre of gravity. Given all the other compromises we also embrace in boats in order to get pleasant sailing performance, because sailing is the entire point of sail boats, this seems like a minor one.

Deck core failures are numerous but that doesn't mean they're common - there are huge numbers of old boats that don't have deck core failure. They're only common in the context of decrepit old boats. Almost anything can be allowed to run down so far it becomes disproportionately high effort to fix, not just boats. (Don't get me started on houses or pianos).

Neither are all deck core failures total. My boat was pretty run down when I got her, deck core failure had not spread very far, I now have nice reinforced patches for key fittings and no sign of further problems. Wasn't that difficult to do. I think I would be reasonably confident to do a wholesale replacement of a coachroof core (it doesn't seem unreasonably scary) if a boat I really wanted fell into my lap for cheap and I could see it fitting into the overall plan of things I wanted to do to it. It would be hard to justify doing to an average-ish boat if one that didn't need it was available for not much more, which is usually the case.
 
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