December WNS Scenario

Thanks,

So now we're getting somewhere...

Single central bow cleat or side's ... and which one is in use ? ...

What about rope .. three, eight strand or braided ... Nylon? and which dimmension ... in millimetres please?

What kind of cleat ?? .. sorry just want the details, so I do not make assumptions...

Also I know the wind dir and force, what is the total tidal flow and river curent? (sorry as I am not there but answering a hypothetical question 700 miles away, I have to ask...).

Will the single pile support my boat leaning in to it?

45 ft gap for a 40 ft + 1ft swim platform... that gives a total of 4ft gap ... 2 ft at each end bow and stern ... sounds a bit tight to be suitable for a 40ft.at high tidal ranges.. but can be done of course... however, I still need some more facts from you first.... not that I am pedantic, just analytical..., so If if you feel I ask too many questions feel free to make a illustration with detailed inserts covering all the facts required for an objective assessmet of the situation before making an approach...

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Didn't I know it all the time, thats why I never mentioned it before.

Course the next WNS, is going to be about. How the hell do I get these two anchors up, that are snagged by all the crap on the yver bed.
 
James

Good point: I didn't state the position of the rings on the poles did I? However, I don't THINK you wouldn't be able to tighten thin lines enough to put sufficient friction on the rings to stop them dropping as the tide goes out. (The inside of such rings - and the inner face of the pole tends to be quite smooth due to frequent use and wouldn't provide enough friction. IMHO).

In my mind, at this stage of the tide the rings would have slid right down and be sitting at the bottom of the poles about 2ft below the surface. Thus the lines would be tight, but simply lifting the rings up wouldn't produce enough slack for what you want.

Best wishes
TJ
 
DM

If you are going to give me a hard time I won't love you any more and may well go off with hlb.

Let's see. Exact spec of line irrrelevant as the scenario says that if you attempt a conventional mooring approach they will break.

In an earlier clarification I said 'central cleat'. As it's a fishing dory it is bound to be cheap 'mazak' thing held on by two self tappers, one of which is loose.

Wind of F2 and ebb/river flow of 1.5kt is clearly stated.

Any pile worthy of its name will easily support your boat leaning on it even if you are broadside across its upwind face.

But as you consider a 45ft gap a bit marginal for a 40 footer you are excused any further involvement in this or future WNS scenarios. They are not for novices! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Broken heartedly
TJ
 
Oiiiii youssss!!!

I'd fit our 45 ft with 2M 50cm overhang in there nae bother .... never mind a dinky 40 ft thingie ... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif!!! ... off centre, sprung bow in and tensioned between bow and centre cleat and reverse sprung from bow with marginal slack on side stern cleat for when the tide changed direction.... ie boat with bow slightly sprung in ... all I needed to know was the details so I could decide what to do and not to, in order to how to not damage any of the boats ... and with minimum deployment of fenders and stress for my novice crew!!!!

You were the one giving us a hard time to start with ... not giving us all the facts and all that, hence the questions..... so let's not start that discussion again .... if you want hlb, have him, but don't come crawling back to me.. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif. afterall I am just your stereotypical 6'2" blond, broad shouldered innocent Norwegian looking for a friendly face in this country...

Oh ... and apologies if I offended anone in this slight domestic, but please forgive me... you see as a forigner, I don't understand the finer connotations of the English language...

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Coursethe only way the thingy with the kedge anchor is going to work, we need to know if the piles, tide and wind, are true north or magnetic. Else our boat ends up a miserable 10 foot away from the dory. So less you want to work out geomitory and pythagerous before going for a pint, it's never going to work, cos as how far east you stick the anchor, the chain still has to go round the pile.. So unless some westerly w2ind or current, yer doomed.
 
[ QUOTE ]
In my mind, at this stage of the tide the rings would have slid right down and be sitting at the bottom of the poles about 2ft below the surface. Thus the lines would be tight, but simply lifting the rings up wouldn't produce enough slack for what you want.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the er begrudging gotchha. Social skills tip: when apologising or backing down on a point, do it with good grace and humble pie. Don't do it begrudgingly and say you were only *slightly* wrong.

Anyway, back to the point. Your cosine geometry is getting a bit kaput. If there is 2 foot of upward movement in the rings, then lifting them up as suggested creates 2 foot of sideways movement without adding any tension in the lines, ie 2 foot of sideways movement before you even leave the origin of TCM's graph. The dory is only 6'10" wide, so 2 foot is a lot.

Taking all the information you've now given and applying the maths, the dory can be moved sideways 3m by adding less than 3% to the tension in its lines. It can be moved sideways 5m (way more than we need) for a 12% incease in tension. The answer started out as "you can't move the dory" but actually you can.
 
So, not bar taut...

If the lines were bar taut then they wd be at the same level as the dory cleats. If twanged, they would play an audible note. That's what bar taut means. But if the rings are below the waterline, well, hm, not bar taut in my book. So no problem hoiking on to piles in the normal way (which in F2 direct from ahead would hardly move the dory anyway...)
 
I'm with jfm and tcm with this one. The lines aren't bar taut. If they were it would be because something had gone wrong after they were attached, like my earlier suggestion.

No one would have tied up a boat like that in the first place. You'd need to put a tackle on the end of the lines or winched on it to get enough tension
 
[/ QUOTE ] Thanks for the er begrudging gotchha. Social skills tip: when apologising or backing down on a point, do it with good grace and humble pie. Don't do it begrudgingly and say you were only *slightly* wrong.



[/ QUOTE ]

/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, back to the point. Your cosine geometry is getting a bit kaput. If there is 2 foot of upward movement in the rings, then lifting them up as suggested creates 2 foot of sideways movement without adding any tension in the lines, ie 2 foot of sideways movement before you even leave the origin of TCM's graph. The dory is only 6'10" wide, so 2 foot is a lot.

Taking all the information you've now given and applying the maths, the dory can be moved sideways 3m by adding less than 3% to the tension in its lines. It can be moved sideways 5m (way more than we need) for a 12% incease in tension. The answer started out as "you can't move the dory" but actually you can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Anyone else think lifting the rings that lie on the dory's centreline by 2ft vertically is going to produce 2ft of sideways movement? Or that a boat tied up fore and aft on tight lines can be moved sideways 5m without something breaking. N.B It was stated that the lines were very thin so adding 36% tension would probably part them.

Oh, forget it. This WNS was clearly intended to bring out techniques as to how to get aboard the dory and slacken its lines without barging it sideways. Fortunately most people got the point and came up with good ideas - rather than focusing on how/why the original scenario was unrealistic.

A line from a Mike and the Mechanics number: 'One penny in a tin makes all the noise'

Cheers
TJ /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
The point being, that I last had my kedge anchor out, about ten years ago. Where upon the rope cutters that I had fixed then, made a fine mess of my new lines. ack to the numpty question.

Tony no disrepect, your a journalist, hardly think you have ever been on a boat, never mind being in charge.

First you have to anchor, then delve down the laserett, ( cellar) Drag up the spare anchor and bit of chain. Find a suitable D HOOK AND ATTATCH IT to a suitably long length of rope.

It might work well with 30 yr old and crew, dont work at all wel with me and SWMBO.
 
Let's make it simple hlb...

1) Bow in towards Pile 1
2) drop kedge anchor in dory, so if the lines snap, you still got hold of the thingie
3) tie up to the piles 1 & 2 as if the dory was not there (afterall you've had the instructios to do so)
4) sort the dory out afterwards .. (if the owner is so careless he won't mind if you snap his lines and splice them later)

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Pick up the N pile ring with a warp on your stbd bow. Drop astern, adjust bow warp and position until you are steady, your stbd bow alongside the dory but not shoving it, you are leaning on S pile. Pick up ring attach stern warp. Hop into dory taking a light line to make sure you can get back, slacken dory S line, get back aboard the rest is easy.
 
Approach pile and attach bow line to ring,
drop back to along side Dorey,
get into Dorey with a long light line,
untie Dorey line once you have attached your lite line to it,
pull though loop on pile,
now attach your stern line to lite line and dory line.
pull back though,
tie up both boats at length require for both to sit happily.

job done. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]

....get into Dorey with a long light line.....


[/ QUOTE ]
Problem is that with lines so taught, even the slightest ripple (in this case dip of the bow) will increase tension on the dory's lines and they will snap ... never mind you putting 1/2 pound pressure sideways to the dory as you move alongside, which most definetly will make the tension even worse...., if at all possible... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
Hlb

Please point me to the post where I even mentioned a kedge anchor. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Cheers
TJ
 
The scenario says the lines are bar taught. Apart from the fact that I write these things and if I say they are, they are, they are because:
The fishermen first made fast to the N'ly pile by looping the line through the ring, bringing it back on board and then letting the ring fall to the base of the pole. They then drifted back to the S'ly pile and did the same, this time allowing enough slack to allow the dory to move forward to the mid position. They then shortened up the bow line to bring it bar tight - 'cos that's what some people do. Not what you and I'd do, of course...

Any other objections? /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Cheers
TJ
 
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