Dead Starter, 3JH4E

I can confirm boater sam's recommendation that LRE are very nice people to deal with. Obviously they have to make a living so they weren't as cheap as ebay for pattern part but they helpfully explained the differences and located 2 suppliers for the genuine hitachi part in the netherlands with different prices and delivery times. Without being steered that way I decided to go for the hitachi (more than twice as much as the pattern part but considerably less than half the yanmar price including expedited delivery). LRE dealt with all the import stuff and I had the starter in my paws by saturday.

And I now have a spare starter because that wasn't the problem

After fitting the new starter and failing to get a win and thinking this now might be a battery problem I moved around my old engine battery and one of the new "house" batteries (note to self: there's a lesson learned from previous episodes of battery fun that I should have some long, thick cables made up to save having to physically move batteries around). Still no joy. So all connectors( by the engine and by the panel) have been pulled apart, checked and squirted with contact cleaner. The fuse in the panel is fine (I checked it but if it wasn't I wouldn't have power to the panel). I was drawing a blank. Having first mate with me I decided to try checking voltages at the starter terminals when the key was turned. I stuck the volt meter between the terminal where the "strap" goes from the starter solenoid to the starter and ground, first mate turned the key and...vrooom! Huh? Did I accidentally short between the 12v? I don't think so (I was careful, rubber boot was over the power terminal, no spark and multimeter probe still intact). Killed the engine. Waited a few minutes. Turned the key...vroom! So now I have a lurking problem I can't reliably reproduce.

My best guess then is that this is a problem with a sticky secondary starter relay (I need to physically find it...) though don't know why my shorting the terminals previously didn't get the starter to turn: maybe I whipped away the screwdriver too quickly. And goodness only knows why the multimeter tipped it into working again.

Regarding my question about "so what should I expect when I 'remove the starter'"...bear in mind I have little mechanical experience. Until you see a part separate from the engine it's hard to know which bits are engine casing and which bits detach as a unit. Obviously now I know :)
 
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You have my sympathy. As has been stated above, it’s highly likely to be part of your electrical set up...

I have a similar problem with my autopilot which randomly (and very occasionally) shows ‘No data’ then works again!!! I have also tried obvious places for the lack of good connection but, as it’s so intermittent, I never know if I’ve done any good (or bad, until it fails again…)
 
laika said:
I can confirm boater sam's recommendation that LRE are very nice people to deal with. Obviously they have to make a living so they weren't as cheap as ebay for pattern part but they helpfully explained the differences and located 2 suppliers for the genuine hitachi part in the netherlands with different prices and delivery times. Without being steered that way I decided to go for the hitachi (more than twice as much as the pattern part but considerably less than half the yanmar price including expedited delivery). LRE dealt with all the import stuff and I had the starter in my paws by saturday.
Click to expand...

I am pleased that LRE could supply the motor, I have found them to be super efficient and fair.
Sad that it was not the solution but now you know what you are looking for, -- -- -- -- -- A Gremlin!
 
LiftyK said:
Could your starter be repaired?
Click to expand...

The starter motor isn’t the problem (see post #21). If VicS is correct about a relay separate to the starter solenoid this might be my next suspect, but I’m wondering if the relay in the diagrams may actually be integrated into the starter solenoid housing (anyone know?). There’s lots on the interweb about the wires from the panel being too small and prone to corrosion. Having said that, there is a click when the key is turned, just no apparent starter action which might suggest the starter not being able to turn the engine. I’m stumped and I suppose il need to wait for it to not work again to continue debugging…
 
laika said:
The starter motor isn’t the problem (see post #21). If VicS is correct about a relay separate to the starter solenoid this might be my next suspect, but I’m wondering if the relay in the diagrams may actually be integrated into the starter solenoid housing (anyone know?). There’s lots on the interweb about the wires from the panel being too small and prone to corrosion. Having said that, there is a click when the key is turned, just no apparent starter action which might suggest the starter not being able to turn the engine. I’m stumped and I suppose il need to wait for it to not work again to continue debugging…
Click to expand...
It is a separate item.
It has been known to be a source of trouble but Yanmar may have addressed the issue. If necessary it can be replaced with a heavy duty automotive relay.
If you can hear a click when you turn the key to the start position that is almost certainly the relay operating , but it does not necessarily mean that the contacts are making a good contact.
The starter motor solenoid makes a much heavier sounding clunk .
Next time it plays up try to check if you are getting power through to the coil connection on the solenoid.
 
laika said:
The starter motor isn’t the problem (see post #21). If VicS is correct about a relay separate to the starter solenoid this might be my next suspect, but I’m wondering if the relay in the diagrams may actually be integrated into the starter solenoid housing (anyone know?). There’s lots on the interweb about the wires from the panel being too small and prone to corrosion. Having said that, there is a click when the key is turned, just no apparent starter action which might suggest the starter not being able to turn the engine. I’m stumped and I suppose il need to wait for it to not work again to continue debugging…
Click to expand...
This is a very common problem on old VW vans. The solenoid cable has to go from the engine to the key switch and back again, a route that engenders high resistance. I, and many others, overcome the problem by attaching a wire to the solenoid connection on the motor and touching it on the battery positive. This is the equivalent of the 'screwdriver' method of connecting the live terminal and solenoid connection but a lot more convenient. You could try the same method. My Yanmar loom was behaving in exactly the same way, so I ran a single wire direct from the switch to the solenoid (although as VicS says, Yanmar now fit a relay, not present on my installation)
 
vyv_cox said:
This is a very common problem on old VW vans. The solenoid cable has to go from the engine to the key switch and back again, a route that engenders high resistance. I, and many others, overcome the problem by attaching a wire to the solenoid connection on the motor and touching it on the battery positive. This is the equivalent of the 'screwdriver' method of connecting the live terminal and solenoid connection but a lot more convenient. You could try the same method. My Yanmar loom was behaving in exactly the same way, so I ran a single wire direct from the switch to the solenoid (although as VicS says, Yanmar now fit a relay, not present on my installation)
Click to expand...
I think the relay is fitted to all the small Yanmars except the GM series
 
laika said:
The starter motor isn’t the problem (see post #21). If VicS is correct about a relay separate to the starter solenoid this might be my next suspect, but I’m wondering if the relay in the diagrams may actually be integrated into the starter solenoid housing (anyone know?). There’s lots on the interweb about the wires from the panel being too small and prone to corrosion. Having said that, there is a click when the key is turned, just no apparent starter action which might suggest the starter not being able to turn the engine. I’m stumped and I suppose il need to wait for it to not work again to continue debugging…
Click to expand...
Talk of solenoids and relays is all well and good but they are bypassed when you shorted out the main power terminal al a post number 1....... Having shorted that terminal then the issue must be in the motor unless the negative return also depends on a relay......
 
ean_p said:
Talk of solenoids and relays is all well and good but they are bypassed when you shorted out the main power terminal al a post number 1....... Having shorted that terminal then the issue must be in the motor unless the negative return also depends on a relay......
Click to expand...
Evidence presented in #1 suggests a very high current flowed though the screwdriver
That suggests that the negative is OK
also that the motor brushes are probably Ok

Hence my suggestion in #3 that the motor may be jamming and that tuning the engine by hand might free it

The intermittent nature of the trouble also suggests this rather than any fault with the relay or the solenoid.
 
Found the relay: hidden away on the back of the engine where it had been blocked from my view by the heat exchanger but…I can’t get the darned thing to *not* work now….Guess I’ll just have to wait until it fails again. Now though I have a much better idea of how this all works. Thanks all for your advice.
 
I replaced mine with one for an anchor windlass it's a pretty simple mounting, but the current to the solenoid on the starter is apparently quite large.
The actual yanmar part can be hard to get hold of and would be a pain to wait for if you were away.
 
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