Dangerous exhaust fumes. I'm more than angry.

[oldgit]

On my boat,the eberspacher stainless exhaust was routed (by me) deliberately away from anything flammable with no insulation .This was to ensure that all and any heat including that from the stainless exhaust hose was radiated inside the boat.
The only thing I may lag eventually are the internal hot air ducts.
If anything important was too close,a couple of small alloy baffle plates prevented excess heat reaching anything vital such as electronics/gas /fuel.


Considering the cost of that stainless stuff is not outrageous,especially from that company in Turkey....why skimp ?

 

[rosssavage]

"Intentionally" disguising the issue might be a little harsh - quite possible someone just thought it would be sufficient to 'fix' the problem rather than any intention to deceive - which might possibly amount to criminal negligence, particularly if a trade 'repair' ?

Did what you found suggest that the last BSS inspection failed to identify a possible problem that should have been picked up at that time?

Well, maybe it is...

I suppose I thought that most people are aware of the dangers of CO and it's really kind of obvious that a woven lagging is not going to be gas tight. It'll be difficult to be sure either way.

With the BSS, don't know. Technically, yes the examiner should pay close attention to the heating system (last one I had did a cursory visual on the heating exhaust) but it was not obvious from external appearances that there was a problem. Do BSS chaps usually leak test exhausts? I don't know.

The standards applied by the examiners seem to be rather arbitrary at best..

 

[boatone]

With the BSS, don't know. Technically, yes the examiner should pay close attention to the heating system (last one I had did a cursory visual on the heating exhaust) but it was not obvious from external appearances that there was a problem. Do BSS chaps usually leak test exhausts? I don't know.

The standards applied by the examiners seem to be rather arbitrary at best..

I'm not sure that there is a specific check item relating to heating appliances other than that installation should follow manufacturers recommendations.
The only leak testing relates to the LPG gas installation, I think.
However, the very existence of the Boat Safety Scheme does, perhaps, encourage a belief that if your boat passes inspection it is therefore "safe". An "ignorant" newbie boater might well be excused for thinking that the BSS Certificate and the surveyors reports can be relied upon.

My survey on the Hardy stated that the Webasto heater was "in good working order". However this was patently untrue as it would not start and the electric supply cable was found broken and lying in the bottom of the boat below the heater !

 

[boatmike]

I'm not sure that there is a specific check item relating to heating appliances other than that installation should follow manufacturers recommendations.
The only leak testing relates to the LPG gas installation, I think.
However, the very existence of the Boat Safety Scheme does, perhaps, encourage a belief that if your boat passes inspection it is therefore "safe". An "ignorant" newbie boater might well be excused for thinking that the BSS Certificate and the surveyors reports can be relied upon.

My survey on the Hardy stated that the Webasto heater was "in good working order". However this was patently untrue as it would not start and the electric supply cable was found broken and lying in the bottom of the boat below the heater !

You are correct to assume normal surveys don't cover the sort of fault found by this owner. In fact many surveys performed for purchasing boats are woefully inadequate. I always assume that when boats change hands the bodge ups made by each successive owner live on and in fact a surveyor would need to be a good detective to find some of them! I am often surprised just how poor the average standard of retrofitted items like cabin heaters are. I recently bought a 1989 Aqua-Star 33. The engines have only done 750 hours and it has only had light use. Basically it is in superb condition but I am spending this year on an extensive refit. So far I have found plastic trunking on the eberspacher rather than the proper ducting (fire risk) Bow thruster wiring with naked chocolate box connectors in the bilge. Electric toilet with similar wiring. Totally non compliant navigation lights. Holes punched in engine air filters to avoid replacement and other cock ups where the alternator wiring has been modified and other stuff added that does not bear mention. The navigation equipment (expensive chart plotters etc) look as if they have been installed by a 3 year old child! All of this is no more or less than I expected and I have indeed bought a lovely boat for a bargain price that enables me to do all the necessary within budget. I have spent most of my life on refits though, both professionally and privately so I know what to expect. I often pity the poor owner with little experience buying second hand...It's a potential minefield!

 

[graham]

Well done for posting it here, may encourage a few more people to check their set ups.

Most people tend to worry about gas installations more than diesel for some reason, co from a diesel burner will kill you just as efficiently.

No overdramatising intended just pointing out a sad fact. CO detectors in Tescos recently for about a tenner.

 

[oldgit]

There was a MAIB down here on the Medway about 10 years ago.

Regards a sports boat where the exhaust and air intake were too close together.!
Bit cold ....covers were on and 1 x fatality.

 

[Latestarter1]

Well done for posting it here, may encourage a few more people to check their set ups.

Most people tend to worry about gas installations more than diesel for some reason, co from a diesel burner will kill you just as efficiently.

No overdramatising intended just pointing out a sad fact. CO detectors in Tescos recently for about a tenner.

Simply NOT true and exactly the reason I commented about people over dramatising this whole matter.

The largest part diesel combustion products from diesel fuelled heaters are nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2) which are not toxic or noxious. A tiny component of combustion gas is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO) from incomplete combustion.

The amout of CO produced by diesel fuel combustion cannot be detected by cheap biometic CO detectors, you would need lab quality metal oxide semiconductor sensor which I have in my test cell. Even with the place rank with diesel exhaust the sensor never even blips.

Somebody MAY have woken up bad headache, red wine does it for me. Nobody died, we now live in a cotton wool world of this and that MAY have happened, and as to talk of tragic outcomes is a gross over reaction. Merely being a car passenger is a quantum more dangerous. Everything in perspective please.............

'Calm down dear' (Michael Winner)

 

[Latestarter1]

There was a MAIB down here on the Medway about 10 years ago.

Regards a sports boat where the exhaust and air intake were too close together.!
Bit cold ....covers were on and 1 x fatality.

I read the MAIB report IT WAS A GASOLINE FUELLED heater............This thread is becoming like reading an accident report in the Sun!

 

[HONEYMOMMY]

'Calm down dear' (Michael Winner)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Winner

On 1 January 2007, Winner acquired the bacterial infection, Vibrio vulnificus from an oyster meal in Barbados. He almost had to have a leg amputated and was on the brink of death on several occasions. Before he fully recovered, Winner caught the "hospital superbug", MRSA.[18] In September 2011, Winner was admitted to hospital with food poisoning after eating steak tartare, a raw meat dish, four days in a row. The dish is not recommended for those with a weakened immune system, and in retrospect Winner regarded his decision to eat it as "stupid".

Would I trust his judgement....

 

[HONEYMOMMY]

On a serious note.

I did not post this to dramatise I posted it to show how some people think this type of repair instead of replacement can cause harm.

If the emmissions are low enough to give someone a bad headache not kill them then that in itself is bad enough. I honestly thought having the exhaust emissions entering the hatch directly below the saloon and possibly entering the saloon could cause death.

Bodging a repair knowing there is any risk to health at all in my opinion is negligent.

 

[Latestarter1]

On a serious note.

I did not post this to dramatise I posted it to show how some people think this type of repair instead of replacement can cause harm.

If the emmissions are low enough to give someone a bad headache not kill them then that in itself is bad enough. I honestly thought having the exhaust emissions entering the hatch directly below the saloon and possibly entering the saloon could cause death.

Bodging a repair knowing there is any risk to health at all in my opinion is negligent.

Was not downplaying your genuine concerns just trying to put them into perspective.

However you can see how people go off like a Catherine wheel with the pin pulled out with very little encouragement.

 

[boatmike]

Simply NOT true and exactly the reason I commented about people over dramatising this whole matter.

The largest part diesel combustion products from diesel fuelled heaters are nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) and carbon dioxide (CO2) which are not toxic or noxious. A tiny component of combustion gas is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO) from incomplete combustion.

The amout of CO produced by diesel fuel combustion cannot be detected by cheap biometic CO detectors, you would need lab quality metal oxide semiconductor sensor whichI have in my test cell. Even with the place rank with diesel exhaust the sensor never even blips.

Somebody MAY have woken up bad headache, red wine does it for me. Nobody died, we now live in a cotton wool world of this and that MAY have happened, and as to talk of tragic outcomes is a gross over reaction. Merely being a car passenger is a quantum more dangerous. Everything in perspective please.............

'Calm down dear' (Michael Winner)

Let me start by saying I agree with you about carbon monoxide. Actually diesels produce a significant amount of oxygen in their exhaust so you are unlikely to die of suffocation or monoxide poisoning. To give the impression that it is safe to breathe though is OTT and needs to be corrected

This is a list of chemical components that have been found in diesel exhaust.



Contaminant

acetaldehyde

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

acrolein

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

aniline

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

antimony compounds

Toxicity similar to arsenic poisoning

arsenic

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens, endocrine disruptor

benzene

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

beryllium compounds

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

biphenyl

It has mild toxicity.

bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate

endocrine disruptor

1,3-butadiene

IARC Group 2A carcinogens

cadmium

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens, endocrine disruptor


chlorine


chlorobenzene

It has "low to moderate" toxicity.


chromium compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

cobalt compounds

cresol isomers

cyanide compounds

dibutyl phthalate

endocrine disruptor

1,8-dinitropyrene

Carcinogen

dioxins and dibenzofurans

ethyl benzene

formaldehyde

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

inorganic lead

endocrine disruptor

manganese compounds

mercury compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

methanol

It may cause blindness.

methyl ethyl ketone

It may cause birth defect.

naphthalene

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

nickel

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

3-Nitrobenzanthrone

One of the strongest carcinogens known

4-nitrobiphenyl

phenol

endocrine disruptor

phosphorus

polycyclic organic matter, including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)

propionaldehyde

selenium compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

styrene

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

toluene

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

xylene isomers and mixtures: o-xylenes, m-xylenes, p-xylenes

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

So er..... not entirely safe I would say!

 

[Latestarter1]

Let me start by saying I agree with you about carbon monoxide. Actually diesels produce a significant amount of oxygen in their exhaust so you are unlikely to die of suffocation or monoxide poisoning. To give the impression that it is safe to breathe though is OTT and needs to be corrected

This is a list of chemical components that have been found in diesel exhaust.



Contaminant

acetaldehyde

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

acrolein

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

aniline

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

antimony compounds

Toxicity similar to arsenic poisoning

arsenic

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens, endocrine disruptor

benzene

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

beryllium compounds

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

biphenyl

It has mild toxicity.

bis(2-ethylhexyl)phthalate

endocrine disruptor

1,3-butadiene

IARC Group 2A carcinogens

cadmium

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens, endocrine disruptor


chlorine


chlorobenzene

It has "low to moderate" toxicity.


chromium compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

cobalt compounds

cresol isomers

cyanide compounds

dibutyl phthalate

endocrine disruptor

1,8-dinitropyrene

Carcinogen

dioxins and dibenzofurans

ethyl benzene

formaldehyde

IARC Group 1 Carcinogens

inorganic lead

endocrine disruptor

manganese compounds

mercury compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

methanol

It may cause blindness.

methyl ethyl ketone

It may cause birth defect.

naphthalene

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

nickel

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

3-Nitrobenzanthrone

One of the strongest carcinogens known

4-nitrobiphenyl

phenol

endocrine disruptor

phosphorus

polycyclic organic matter, including polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs)

propionaldehyde

selenium compounds

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

styrene

IARC Group 2B carcinogens

toluene

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

xylene isomers and mixtures: o-xylenes, m-xylenes, p-xylenes

IARC Group 3 carcinogens

So er..... not entirely safe I would say!

Well Googled, I note you do not quote actual volumes..........And the above still do not set of CO alarm.

Having spent more than a little time working of health effects of diesel combustion in the U.S. would venture that standing on any street corner is not without it's hazards.

 

[dash300]

To be quite honest, who wants fumes in their boat its not pleasant and not healthy (whether life threatening or not). Forget the relative toxicity arguements, it was not right and has been fixed. In the same vein I cannot for the life of me see why (where I happen to live) Weybridge 'cafe society' find pleasure in sitting on the pavement supping coffee 8 feet from the exhausts of passing traffic. Call me weird but I prefer to sit in a riverside pub garden watching the world go by without fumes.

 

[HONEYMOMMY]

I have done my feed the hoard at Sainsbury's and was thinking on the way home while also in shock as usual as to how much four teenagers can eat...........

If the fumes could give me a headache what would happen to a baby who may be in a bassinette in the saloon to sleep, bearing in mind its right above the hatch?

Not dramatising, just honestly want to know..

Oh.. drama or not I have just bought a new CO alarm for the boat, old one going in the bin as I don't know it's history, eg dropped/damaged.

 

[boatmike]

I have done my feed the hoard at Sainsbury's and was thinking on the way home while also in shock as usual as to how much four teenagers can eat...........

If the fumes could give me a headache what would happen to a baby who may be in a bassinette in the saloon to sleep, bearing in mind its right above the hatch?

Not dramatising, just honestly want to know..

Oh.. drama or not I have just bought a new CO alarm for the boat, old one going in the bin as I don't know it's history, eg dropped/damaged.

I think anything that can be done so easily to remove any potential hazard is good. There is no reason at all why you should breathe diesel fumes if the Eber is properly installed but a co alarm is good to have anyway if you use gas on board. All precautions are worthwhile and if you have a baby on board you certainly don't want to expose him/her to known carcinogens at any dilution. That's not dramatising it's being sensible. At one time blue asbestos was thought to be safe........

 

[HONEYMOMMY]

At one time blue asbestos was thought to be safe........

We used to play around the local dump (loads there, all types) and on the garage roofs in the seventies, never thought of as a problem. The oldies were more worried about us damaging the garage block than our health. LOL

We thought the clip round the ear would be the worst outcome.

 

[PilotWolf]

Just a thought and albeit an unlikely occurrence but if sufficient amount of any gas other than oxygen were to become present it could still cause suffocation due to a no oxygen atmosphere.

As I said unlikely but if all the holes in the cheese line up... eg cold weather so all hatches and ports closed tight, small space, few beers, heavy sleeper or light sleep and a couple of sleeping pills.

W.

 

[Latestarter1]

Just a thought and albeit an unlikely occurrence but if sufficient amount of any gas other than oxygen were to become present it could still cause suffocation due to a no oxygen atmosphere.

As I said unlikely but if all the holes in the cheese line up... eg cold weather so all hatches and ports closed tight, small space, few beers, heavy sleeper or light sleep and a couple of sleeping pills.

W.

Yes all extremely unlikely, so why bother...........Standing on a busy street corner is more risky.

Having served in the MN the risks of Carbon Monoxide poisoning are drilled into you in fire fighting training.

Carbon Monoxide is an evil silent killer colorless, odorless, tasteless, and initially non-irritating, it is very difficult for people to detect. Goes straight for the red blood cells once it has passed though walls of the lungs, instantly reduces ability of blood cells to carry oxygen. The way it affects body is complex as it also attacks central nervous system.

Recovery from a CO induced coma is rare due to damage caused to central nervous system.

In my book there is no such thing as a safe GASOLINE fuelled cabin heater however well it is installed.

Never a lover of gasoline since being blown up on boat in the 1960's. Saturday morning job was turning round hire cruisers, hirers topped up tanks on hand over. I let the ropes go and pushed off, hit the starter button and the old Morris Navigator backfired and stopped, hit the starter button again and was eveloped in a ball of fire from the aft cabin door. I did not need to jump the whoomph blew me clean over the side.

We suspected that the hirer had been over enthusiastic filling the tank and vessel had a bilge full of fuel from leak in filler neck.

Went home for a change of clothes and my mother trimmed off singed hair before returning to work. Later discovered that I had been docked the hour when going home to change.

Fire brigade and Thames Conservancy guys were not in the least bit concerned about me or the likelyhood of a more serious outcome MAY have happened, cos nothing did. TC were more concerned with marking wreck with buoy until it could be salvaged.

 

[CX54WEK]

To be quite honest, who wants fumes in their boat its not pleasant and not healthy (whether life threatening or not). Forget the relative toxicity arguements, it was not right and has been fixed. In the same vein I cannot for the life of me see why (where I happen to live) Weybridge 'cafe society' find pleasure in sitting on the pavement supping coffee 8 feet from the exhausts of passing traffic. Call me weird but I prefer to sit in a riverside pub garden watching the world go by without fumes.

Have you not seen some of the plumes of smoke and fumes emitted from boats. Riverside gardens aint all they are cracked up to be on sunny summer days