Dangerous Boat Yards

That's why I like boatyards; because they aren't sterile, rule-heavy environments.
Live and let live. Don't turn the UK into even more of a UK of A.

I hate all this rule stuff, all this stupid putting up of railings on clifftops etc. Let humans decide if they are dumb enough to walk on broken glass or fall off pontoons.
 
What pray did I do to warrant that little vitriolic outburst? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

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Vitriol not intended, point I was making was that we should not hesitate to put things right, the examples are never ending where people have said things after the event, I bet you could name a few yourself.

The quiet word is never easy and often not well recieved, unless you know the owner to be a fair person it takes a lot to risk the abuse.

Cheap moorings are attractive but for me not at the risk of someones health and safety, I take my seven year old sailing and have had my 10 week old niece on my boat if they were injured for the sake of a few bucks...... Well?

As for calling in big brother, we are not in a totalitarian state, these organisations not only protect our interests they do also offer help and advice; if your yard got an enforcement notice to clean up their act that can only be a good thing, if they had a visit and were told they could find nothing wrong this will also not be a bad thing and the yard owner won't be charged.

So perhaps not vitriolic but to the point, apologies if it was too blunt the written word does not always come across with the same intention as speech.
 
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That's why I like boatyards; because they aren't sterile, rule-heavy environments.
Live and let live. Don't turn the UK into even more of a UK of A.

I hate all this rule stuff, all this stupid putting up of railings on clifftops etc. Let humans decide if they are dumb enough to walk on broken glass or fall off pontoons.


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My feelings exactly.............but alas these days nanny knows best, and we all must be protected from ourselves.......mustn't we?

Old fashioned boatyards of the kind I remember from my youth, are in my opinion, a treasure to find these days. I don't much care for Marinas, I care even less for their fancy prices and fancy ideas!
 
I suppose it all depends which side of the fence you are on. Occasionally my work is hazardous, working on roofs, or in confined spaces or in buildings with asbestos present. These 'big brother' rules as you call them have given people like me the power to say 'no' if we are told to do something dangerous. Employers have traditionally not given a toss and asked/ordered employees to do some unbelievable dangerous things.

A boat yard can be traditional and safe. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I'd think the true distinction is between well managed and badly managed. I beleive there was a case recently where a migrant worker in England was burned to death welding in a yacht hull. The photo of the yacht exploding was caught on CCTV...but what the hell, they are only rules.

Now when your daughter/ grand daughter treads on soemething that goes through her foot and gets infected, then it will be a different matter for you I suspect.

I'm in support of sensible HS rules. I've seen the other side.

Tim
 
No problem! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif........I do understand your point of view, but I feel that if a facility is not to your liking, maybe you should perhaps consider moving to one that is? Dogwatch made a few useful suggestions, that could maybe lead to a happy settlement of the situation? I do feel that it is up to all of us to be aware of our environment and behave accordingly, you have the advantage of me though in that you seem to know which yard we are talking about, I still maintain that a quiet friendly word or an offer to get the boat owners together (as Dogwatch suggested) and have a bit of a tidy up, might not be as fraut or as difficult as you imagine?
 
Hi Tim,

Whilst I can sympathise with most of what you say, I still feel that as boat owners, we should take responsibility for ourselves. Employees are a different matter, and employers have a duty of care to their employees, on the other hand, employees have a duty of care to their employers, in that they should endevour to carry out their work in a safe and proper manner, and also do their best to maintain their work areas in a clean and safe condition. All this is nothing new, it was being drummed into me when I was an apprentice some 60 odd years ago! Long before the H&SE was even a dribble down somebodies leg! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

My main point in this discussion, is that communication carried out in a friendly and non confrontational manner, between the customers and the management of the boatyard, could have the desired result, without resorting to "going behind peoples backs", and bringing in the authorities, which I have to say, could well result in a situation developing that is not desirus to either party?
 
But the other point to the debate which shouldn't go amiss is that the guilty party is the negligent boat yard owner.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable confronting the owner they should not hesitate to contact the local authority or the HSE.

The terms snitch, grass, tell tale belong to the school yard, if someone gets injured because firstly the owner was unapproachable then secondly peer pressure said grassing is a bad thing then who is to blame, the person who did or said nothing, the owner or both.

It is not grassing, it is being a responsible member of the community and I will applaud the reporters.

Just to emphasise the guilty one is the negligent yard owner this should not be forgotten.

Followed closely by those that ignore the issue.

Report it!! No debate!! Then sleep at night.
 
If all the owners voted with their feet and went somewhere else....

Do others feel as you do? Or would you be running a one man crusade - in which case you would probably be forced to move anyway.

But running off to big brother without trying to sort it locally first is as others have commented typical of the 'modern' mentality and will almost certainly mean the you will lose your cheap moorings when 'they' close it down. Also the time and money the yard owner would have to invest will reflect in the size of your bills.

There is such a thing as shooting yourself in the foot....

Irresponsible of the owner/manager? Yes. But he remains in business because presumably the bulk of his customers are happy to live with his mess at his prices. If there has already been an injury, then presumably the injured party did not claim against the yard insurance? Why not? Thats what it is there for. Assuming he IS insured it would be a very strange company who did not investigate such a claim and insist on things being sorted as a future condition of insurance. And if he doesnt then he is probably trading illegally anyway. If anyone is paid to work there then he must have employers insurance, by law.

But whichever way, if you do stir it up, there will be no more cheap moorings.
 
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But the other point to the debate which shouldn't go amiss is that the guilty party is the negligent boat yard owner.

If someone doesn't feel comfortable confronting the owner they should not hesitate to contact the local authority or the HSE.



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Negligent in who's opinion?? Do any of the other customers of the yard feel the same??

If somebody doesn't feel comfortable about "confronting" the yard owner, maybe they should aquire some bigger balls? Confrontation will not win the day I feel.

The tone of your posts is, if you don't mind me saying so very gladitorial, what I and some others have been trying to get across to you and the original poster, is that an approach with a somewhat different frame of mind, might result in everybody being happy.

It may well be that there is much to loose if someone were to follow your way of doing things, and just maybe a lot more to gain from being a little more human?
 
Boatyards are places of work. Nobody deserves to get hurt or worst still killed at work. It is absolutely tragic when someone loses a limb or dies for just going to work. Anyone who turns a blind eye to unsafe practices for a quiet life or to save/make a few quid should be ashamed. You wouldn't go to sea in an unsafe boat, why be unsafe in the boatyard.
 
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Chrusty1 we have differed in the past, but we do agree on many issues - this included

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Thank you for that Reg, personally I think there is loads of room for "differs" within the pages of these forums, but isn't that what makes them so interesting, surely, and rightly people have different ideas and opinions, but I think that (and maybe a bit old fashioned this), as long as we try to be gentlemen, and or ladies, we can all rub along just fine. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PS. I am not always very good at the last bit, but I do try /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Negligent in who's opinion?? Do any of the other customers of the yard feel the same??

If somebody doesn't feel comfortable about "confronting" the yard owner, maybe they should aquire some bigger balls? Confrontation will not win the day I feel.

The tone of your posts is, if you don't mind me saying so very gladitorial, what I and some others have been trying to get across to you and the original poster, is that an approach with a somewhat different frame of mind, might result in everybody being happy.

It may well be that there is much to loose if someone were to follow your way of doing things, and just maybe a lot more to gain from being a little more human?

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Chrusty

You've put words and ways into my mouth, my way of doing things is to have that quiet word, then if that fails I will follow up with enforcement.

My experience of representing people is that all are different, if like you they have the balls to get up and say their bit great. If not or which may be a real possibility the owner is intimidating then they should have the courage to report it and not feel awkward about doing so.
Like you I do not know the specifics about this particular site so I have only been adding my two penneth worth on whether to report or not.
Disagreeing with you or anyone is not gladitorial, confrontational or whatever it is having a different view, it is up to readers to decide what they believe more valid.

What may be gladitorial is this challenge; why don't you "bell the cat" by asking for the yard owners contact details asking for some specific examples then make that phonecall, or visit in person, then at least you would have proved half your point. Please let us know if it works.

Signed
Courage of my convictions, not anonymous.
Conrad Broadley
 
Whether the yard is "cheap" or not it has to comply with the law on Health and Safety. Similarly it is irrelevant whether individuals are prepared to put up with a dangerous environment to get a cheap deal - the owner has obligations towards anybody using his premises under Public liability and can be sued if he is shown to be negligent. As to users banding together to remedy the defects, this is a non-starter, although it works with a members club, which is also subject to the same Health and Safety requirements.

The sensible approach is to draw concerns to the attention of the management, better if more than one customer does it. If there is no response then go to the authorities, who have a legal duty to ensure premises comply with the law. Fear of losing your "cheap" morring should not come into it.
 
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Negligent in who's opinion?? Do any of the other customers of the yard feel the same??

If somebody doesn't feel comfortable about "confronting" the yard owner, maybe they should aquire some bigger balls? Confrontation will not win the day I feel.

The tone of your posts is, if you don't mind me saying so very gladitorial, what I and some others have been trying to get across to you and the original poster, is that an approach with a somewhat different frame of mind, might result in everybody being happy.

It may well be that there is much to loose if someone were to follow your way of doing things, and just maybe a lot more to gain from being a little more human?

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Chrusty

You've put words and ways into my mouth, my way of doing things is to have that quiet word, then if that fails I will follow up with enforcement.

My experience of representing people is that all are different, if like you they have the balls to get up and say their bit great. If not or which may be a real possibility the owner is intimidating then they should have the courage to report it and not feel awkward about doing so.
Like you I do not know the specifics about this particular site so I have only been adding my two penneth worth on whether to report or not.
Disagreeing with you or anyone is not gladitorial, confrontational or whatever it is having a different view, it is up to readers to decide what they believe more valid.

What may be gladitorial is this challenge; why don't you "bell the cat" by asking for the yard owners contact details asking for some specific examples then make that phonecall, or visit in person, then at least you would have proved half your point. Please let us know if it works.

Signed
Courage of my convictions, not anonymous.
Conrad Broadley

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Well I apologise if you think that I put words in your mouth, but I think I was just responding to what you said?

Pardon if I am being a bit thick here, "Bell the cat"? what's that?.........(I crave your forebearance, I am an old geezer).

To be honest, we are all talking ouside the box a bit here, because only the original poster knows the score, at least I hope he does. I also think that we are all just discussing what we feel is the right way to approach these matters as and when?

Not much else to add to this thread for me, so I will leave it there.

Fair winds..............or cheap fuel, whichever is appropriate! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Belling the Cat (Aesop)


LONG ago, the mice had a general council to consider what measures they could take to outwit their common enemy, the Cat. Some said this, and some said that; but at last a young mouse got up and said he had a proposal to make, which he thought would meet the case. “You will all agree,” said he, “that our chief danger consists in the sly and treacherous manner in which the enemy approaches us. Now, if we could receive some signal of her approach, we could easily escape from her. I venture, therefore, to propose that a small bell be procured, and attached by a ribbon round the neck of the Cat. By this means we should always know when she was about, and could easily retire while she was in the neighbourhood.” 1
This proposal met with general applause, until an old mouse got up and said: “That is all very well, but who is to bell the Cat?” The mice looked at one another and nobody spoke. Then the old mouse said:
“IT IS EASY TO PROPOSE IMPOSSIBLE REMEDIES.”
 
/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif......very good! Though I think that some of us have not been proposing impossible remedies.
 
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so far one arm has been broken by yard machinery being left around

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Do you know this for a fact and has the victim sought legal advice?

Because, if he did, the problem should be well on the way to being solved.

Or is this just another 'I heard..........' story?
 
All this talk of bringing in H&S depresses me no end, and I suspect you may end up with a result that makes things worse for you and a lot of others.

The number of cheap boat yards are dissapearing by the year, but the number of people having to boat on a budget is not.

The owner could install lots of fences, railings, resurfacing, signs, lights, renovate buildings, provide out of bounds areas etc, but that will cost money so they will then have to put up the rent, which will cause a lot of resentment and hassel. On top of that they may need to raise the money in loan form, and hope that the increase charges pay this off sooner than later, taking a risk on the interest rate vs the viability of the yard.

They may be able to sell to a larger boat yard, however the owner will make the most money if they sell to a builder. If it looks a bad as you are saying, building permission may be easier to get than you think.

The builder will put up some nice water front flats, which means another set of boats chasing a diminishing set of moorings, allowing the remaining mooring prices to increase because demand outstrips supply (see the countless threads on ripoff marinas)

Been there done that got the teeshirt.

I would say that you are more at risk at sea in a gale than you are in an old fashioned boat yard.

If you do not like it, vote with your feet, and go to a boat yard that meets your criteria.

Calling in H&S and putting the facility at risk is a selfish act which risks you losing the facility and for all the other owners who appear to be able to accept the price / risk ratio.
 
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