Cutter rigs.

oldmanofthehills said:
..... If you want it parallel as in proper cutter rig then you must come down a bit but I would incline against running back stays. My old old boat had a fractional rig with no consideration of the top of mast backstay not balanced by the forestay a long way down the mast, so clearly a lot of native stiffness in any mast..... .
Click to expand...

On your fractional rig the aft support for the forestay was probably provided by aft swept spreaders and the cap shrouds meeting at the top of the forestay plane; hence it was supported.

My yacht, a conventional Bermudan sloop has been converted to a cutter. The inner forestay is parallel and about 1/2 way between the straight spreaders and the forestay hound. The mast has cap shrouds, forward and aft lower shrouds (which meet just below the spreaders) and new aft lowers that meet at the inner forestay.

Years ago I sailed with hanked on sails and then we used the inner forestay but I honestly don't think it contributed to much. Now, on this boat, with a roller reefing headsail I never use the stay sail. In light airs it fouls the genoa when tacking and I have not sailed in any wind where my genoa rolled to No 4 and 3 reefs in the main have not been sufficient.

In the next couple of years I hope to go northwards, so maybe the hanked on storm sail will have a use then. My advice would be to set up one of these inner forestays on a high-field lever that you can use for storm jibs. A colleague fitted an inner forestay to his Colvic 29 (?) which was ties to the gunwale when not in use. I did use a storm jib on that boat and it was easy to fit to a bracket just behind the stem head fitting and then pull the high field lever down.

I would also seek professional advice for the rigging if you do decide to retro fit a cutter rig. Remember, that the aft stays and inner forestay need strong anchor points as well, not easy to retrofit.

My advice though is don't bother, the inner forestay takes up good deck space for little added benefit. Fit a removable inner forestay.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Nobody seems to have mentioned Running Backstays. I'm not sure about these on a boat that wasn't designed to take a staysail.
My cutter came with them and the purpose of the running backstays where to prevent "pumping" in/of the mast.
No doubt someone will be along with far more experience than me to comment, it was just a thought.
 
grumpygit said:
Nobody seems to have mentioned Running Backstays. I'm not sure about these on a boat that wasn't designed to take a staysail.
My cutter came with them and the purpose of the running backstays where to prevent "pumping" in/of the mast.
No doubt someone will be along with far more experience than me to comment, it was just a thought.
Click to expand...

I think it's better to look at the boat as a whole rather than debate individual features out of context from the whole rig.
Whether you want running backstays will depend on spreader geometry, mast section, forestay heights etc etc.
I'm not sure I'd want a 'small' boat as a cutter, you have to weigh up the pros and cons.
I'd rather have a sloop with a low/no overlap blade headsail for short handed tacking, and a big man, plus some offwind sails.
Plus, a proper storm jib made for that purpose only.
But I expect I am envisaging a completely different boat from the OP.

Just choose the best boat you can afford for your purposes. Re-developing the rig is unlikely to get you exactly what you want at the first attempt, and it's a costly game to play.
 
BlowingOldBoots said:
On your fractional rig the aft support for the forestay was probably provided by aft swept spreaders and the cap shrouds meeting at the top of the forestay plane; hence it was supported.

My yacht, a conventional Bermudan sloop has been converted to a cutter. The inner forestay is parallel and about 1/2 way between the straight spreaders and the forestay hound. The mast has cap shrouds, forward and aft lower shrouds (which meet just below the spreaders) and new aft lowers that meet at the inner forestay.


My advice would be to set up one of these inner forestays on a high-field lever that you can use for storm jibs. A colleague fitted an inner forestay to his Colvic 29 (?) which was ties to the gunwale when not in use. I did use a storm jib on that boat and it was easy to fit to a bracket just behind the stem head fitting and then pull the high field lever down.

I would also seek professional advice for the rigging if you do decide to retro fit a cutter rig. Remember, that the aft stays and inner forestay need strong anchor points as well, not easy to retrofit.

My advice though is don't bother, the inner forestay takes up good deck space for little added benefit. Fit a removable inner forestay.
Click to expand...

Blowing OB ,you misunderstood. On my old unadapted fractional rig the back stay goes to top of mast and forestay about a metre down thus inducing potential bending. Mast took it ok for years. So adding extra forestay about a metre down from mast head forestay no worse than that. Anyway a "temp" forestay for smaller sail unlikely to have as much load on mast as full genoa on main forestay.

Running back stays complicates gybing downwind and some books on heavy weather sailing recommend avoiding them as vulnerable when you most need it, compared with fixed wire.

Certainly I think highfield levers or even pelican hooks are a better bet for attaching inner stay. Thats what I have done with two old boats and what I am planning for latest. Declutters foredeck when you want to pump up dinghy etc.
 
oldmanofthehills said:
Blowing OB ,you misunderstood. On my old unadapted fractional rig the back stay goes to top of mast and forestay about a metre down thus inducing potential bending. Mast took it ok for years. So adding extra forestay about a metre down from mast head forestay no worse than that. Anyway a "temp" forestay for smaller sail unlikely to have as much load on mast as full genoa on main forestay.......
Click to expand...

On a fractional rig, there is generally aft sweep to the spreaders, and the shrouds are behind the mast, a bit like a dighy where no backstay is needed.

The temporary forestay will have whatever load on it which heels the boat and resists the leach tension from the reefed main etc. Using it for a storm jib, there can be a lot of load on the inner forestay.
Also, by using a staysail instead of a working jib, you are moving the centre of effort back, so you will end up using more jib and less main to compensate.
Of course if your idea of storm sailing is being comfortable in a F6 rather than surviving in F10, then the loads are much lower.
In real weather and un-flat seas, the dynamic loads from a slack inner forestay might be a big problem.
Also the mast will be possbily be weakened in a stressed area by adding the stay.

Obviously there are loads of masthead rigged boats out there with over-strong masts which can take such a conversion, but your logic that adding an inner stay is 'no worse' is probably not generally true.
 
Last edited:
lw395 said:
Obviously there are loads of masthead rigged boats out there with over-strong masts which can take such a conversion, but your logic that adding an inner stay is 'no worse' is probably not generally true.
Click to expand...

Your logic would seem to be make no improvements in case some dont work perfectly. If you dont have an inner stay but only a roller furled forestay then you cant set a storm jib and you cant do Semi Cutter / Solent Rig downwind and both these are desirable in differing situations. I still dont like running backstays though there is nothing to stop the OP fitting them, and I am not at all convinced that an inner stay fixed less than a metre below the mast top generates excess bending load on the mast. Fitting of course needs to be appropriate to not weaken the mast. I think roller furled genoa is fine for F6, so I am thinking F8 or F9 for storm jib, though am not so gung ho as to want be out in such weather or worse in any smallish boat. With highfield lever or similar the inner stay should not be slack, but like everything else it needs setting up.

Of course a storm sail could be set on an inner stay only up to the cross trees, which is certainly less problematic in terms of fixing. Wouldnt work on any of my boats as existing baby stay gets in the way but might work on some, and the staysail could be hoisted free. That however does not cover the advantages or otherwise of cutter or solent rig
 
Last edited:
oldmanofthehills said:
Your logic would seem to be make no improvements in case some dont work perfectly. If you dont have an inner stay but only a roller furled forestay then you cant set a storm jib and you cant do Semi Cutter / Solent Rig downwind and both these are desirable in differing situations. I still dont like running backstays though there is nothing to stop the OP fitting them, and I am not at all convinced that an inner stay fixed less than a metre below the mast top generates excess bending load on the mast. Fitting of course needs to be appropriate to not weaken the mast. I think roller furled genoa is fine for F6, so I am thinking F8 or F9 for storm jib, though am not so gung ho as to want be out in such weather or worse in any smallish boat. With highfield lever or similar the inner stay should not be slack, but like everything else it needs setting up.
....
Click to expand...
This seems to me to be mostly arm-waving, guessing and prejudice rather than sound engineering.

There are good reasons why boats don't leave the factory rigged like this.
 
I'm certainly not a rigger, but am advised by maybe half-a-dozen pro riggers that an inner forestay, retro-fitted to a masthead bmu rig within 6% of fore triangle height, should not need runners. Selden Masts show that in their Yacht Product Catalogue V.6 p.33 - 'Running backstay attachment'...... http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1322118734/595-808-E.pdf

There's a lot more useful guidance in Selden's 'Hints and Advice' booklet..... http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1456145028/595-540-E.pdf

E&OE. Not 'Gospel'. Just sayin'......:rolleyes:
 
Many thanks for all of the replies. I've read them all with great interest. The comment about buying a Vancouver 27 makes sense apart from the price. A Contessa 26 can be found for about £8k-£9k, others for as little as £4k but the Vancouvers seem to be £20k. Are there any other robust, longkeeled models that have cutter rigs?
I'm interested that the Vancouver has running back stays.
Allan
 
Last edited:
lw395 said:
This seems to me to be mostly arm-waving, guessing and prejudice rather than sound engineering. There are good reasons why boats don't leave the factory rigged like this.
Click to expand...

The main reason for omission of most functions is probably cost and that for many some items unnecessary. ( 2 of my 5 boats seemed rarely to been have actually had sails used by others and certainly not much in bad weather)

Missing items in my 5 were:
lack of gimballed cooker. 2
lack of back up reefing cringles on roller reefing. 5
lack of grab handles in saloon 4lack of trisail and storm jib 4.5
lack of fiddles to stop everything cascading off the shelving in "cuddies" when the boat rolls 4
lack of bridgedeck or cockpit sill board 1.
lack of fireproof engine bulkhead 4 (required by commercial but still a goods idea for leisure where possible)
lack of self contained sidelockers that dont flood hull if lid displaced by storm 1
lack of separation of cockpit from hull void 2

Mostly all fixable and mostly all fixed.

As for accusations of arm waving and prejudice concerning alterations to rigs, thats plain silly. Its not rocket science and people have been changing rigs on boats for the last 5 thousand years without calculators or degrees. (I take the point about storm jib on a light movable stay), It may need circumspection and it may need a professional riggers advice but that doesnt make it impossible or undesirable.
 
You're advocating having the top of the inner forestay twice as far from the outer forestay as Selden suggest is reasonable, without so much as a look at the stiffness of the mast section in relation to the size and weight of the boat.
The Vancouver has a reputation as an ocean boat. Its rig has runners for a reason.

It's interesting that some pix of V27s show the runners coming from near the transom, others from further forwards, where they'd presumably offer better sideways support.

I'm not aware of any comparable production cutters, not that that means such small ocean-oriented boats don't exist.
I'm not sure why people are so against runners on a boat intended for long distance, they are not the end of the world for short tacking, as can be seen by looking at A-Raters on the Thames.

Good rigs are science. there is much experience embodied in the 'normal' rigs when it comes to making things light enough and reliable enough. Adding in extra stays and sails willy-nilly throws all that away. Let's face it, every boat builder want the mast as light as can be got away with for reasons of peformance as well as cost, within the other compromises of the boat. So a production boat's mast, will probably not have huge reserves of strength in case someone wants to add a forestay in the middle of a span. Particularly to then go sailing in rougher conditions than the designer had in mind, which would seem to be most of the point of adding a permanently rigged small jib/staysail.
 
There was a Vancouver 27 for sale recently in France for about £11000 so they can be found cheap occasionally.

The running backstays on the V32 were removed on the V34 and replaced with intermediate lowers and the I think the V28 might have done the same but can't be certain. Less string in the cockpit and much easier to tack.
 
Just a note on running backstays.

There is more than one way of killing the cat.

My present cutter has Dyneema tails to dedicated winches with a tricing line to take the pendants forward to the shrouds and stop then slatting about. Short tacking, you leave them set up on both sides - she is close winded and is happy with the boom pretty much on the centre line. When reaching, or running, you let the lee runner go.

My last boat had/has flexible stainless steel tails which run from a Wichard HR hook on a deck eye forward, through a wire rope block on the pendant, to a Highfield lever abreast the cockpit. She is an elderly gaffer and she doesn’t do “close winded”. Boom over lee quarter. Short tacking or reaching, you throw over the lee lever; running, you unhook the fall and take the pendant to the shrouds with the tricing line.

The good thing about the Highfield Lever set up is that it is quick and it gives you just the right tension, every time, even in the dark and the rain.

Anyone who is used to having their mainsheet on a traveller need have no worries about runners.

And you don’t have to fight a huge genoa!
 
Last edited:
What a coincidence! We've just moored next to a German Vancouver 27. The owner has just told me he's been to South America, South Africa and is now heading back to Germany. I don't think there are better recommendations than that! Unfortunately they are still a bit over my budget.
Allan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top