Cutter rig

Porthandbuoy

Porthandbuoy

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Options, opinions and ideas please.

Let's say I want to convert Mariposa to cutter rig. Could I

a) Keep the existing forestay and run another stay from the bowsprit end to the masthead with the jib on Wykeham-Martin gear behind the new stay.

b) Keep the existing forestay and fit the jib on W/M gear from the bowsprit end to the masthead (no additional stay).

c) Move the existing forestay from the masthead to the vicinity of the lowers and fit new forestay from bowsprit end to masthead, with jib on W/M gear behind it.
 
No bowsprit as yet. I've fitted the bobstay fitting and will be making the spar this winter. I've got size 2 W/M gear and a natty bronze 2 1/2" 4-eye cranse iron. I'm coming round to the opinion that if I leave the existing stay, from stemhead to masthead, she doesn't need another stay and it would be okay to fly the jib from the bowsprit.
 
Will you not need an outer forestay to counteract the tension of the bobstay should you wish to bring in the furled jib? I know very little about this sort of thing, to be honest, just working on a very basic idea about compression upon spars etc.
 
Option C is the one I'd go for. What about sail balance, though? You really should move the mast aft to counterbalance the jib, which is a hell of a big job. If you have a gaff mainsail you might be able to get away with extending the boom and gaff so that the leech of the main is moved aft. Is there a cutter nearby of roughly the same dimensions so that you could measure up the rig? Do you know where the Centre of Effort of the current rig is? Does Mariposa balance well under the current rig? You'll have to have all these issues sorted first before you actually do anything.
Peter.
 
Definitely move the present forestay to a lower point on the mast. You need a separation all the way up for the two foresails.
You shouldn't have a stay too close to a W-M furler - the sail tends to wrap itself round the stay instead of the sail's own wire. You don't need a stay on the end of the bowsprit, unless you have a topmast. The jib wire becomes a forestay, and the jib stays pretty permanently tensioned at the end of the bowsprit even when furled. Don't tension the bob stay too much, and then use the jib halliard to tension the whole thing.
You really do need a proper W-M swivel at the top, not just a swivel hank. Also ideally a double-ended halliard with two blocks one each side of the mast, so that the swivel is held steady. Otherwise there is a tendency for the halliard to twist intead of the sail.
 
I have a proper W/M swivel and planned to runn the halyard as you describe. This will give a 2:1 purchase, so as well as preventing the halyard from twisting I should be able to swig it up pretty tight.

I don't know about using the luff wire and W/M gear bearings as a stay though. I always thought that was a no-no.
 
If you can find a copy of "The Best Of Sail Trim" edited by Charles Mason it contains an article by Charles Vilas titled Triple Roller Headsails. You may be interested in his experiences with W-M furling gear, three of them, on his Colin Archer.
He comments that for sailing in protected areas he removes the forestay leaving only the three roller furling rigs to support the mast, for offshore work he re-installs the forestay.
He has his three W-M rigs mounted on solid rod pennants with short rods welded just above the drum to enable him to furl by hand should the furling line break.
He has a wire stay made up of the right length to replace the rollerfurling sails in "hurricane" conditions!
 
(c) - and some notes.

When we modified “MYTICA” from Bermuda sloop to gaff cutter her original rig was a ¾ sloop with the forestay not going to the masthead, so it was easy to retain that and fit a new outer forestay from the bowsprit end to the masthead, with the w/m gear inside that. However “MARIPOSA” seems to have a masthead rig and you are staying Bermudian.

I would fit runners, unless your lower shrouds go well aft (they may well do) and take the inner forestay to a lower point on the mast. It is good if the luffs of the two headsails are more or less parallel.

If the bowsprit is going to be more than three or four feet outboard I would very seriously consider making it retractable. If you can manage with a shorter bowsprit I would have it fixed, with no shrouds, and have the w/m gear fixed as well – it may well be that the w/m gear will be reachable from the deck to clear foul ups. This is neat, simple, strong and light.

If you fit a longer bowsprit you can still avoid a traveller if you can get to the w/m gear by fitting bowsprit shrouds and standing on them, or by standing on the bobstay.

There is no real need to have an outer forestay and I would avoid one.

On MIRELLE we have the full box of tricks – retractable bowsprit, size 4 w/m gear, on a ring traveller, shrouds, tricing up bobstay and outer forestay, and it is a pain in the neck!

I was thinking of abolishing the shrouds, until yesterday afternoon when I spent some time on the foredeck as we were beating up into Harwich in a 6/7 with full headsails – I am now convinced that the shrouds do some useful work (!) and they will be staying, but the outer forestay goes this winter. But our bowsprit is 12 feet outboard.

To sum up, I would fit a short fixed bowsprit, maybe 4ft outboard, with a fixed chain bobstay, no shrouds, and a very light outer forestay for appearance’s sake and to stop the top of the mast from pulling aft under mainsail tension. I would have the w/m gear fixed at a safe distance inside the outer forestay, so the forestay does not frap up with the sail, and if the lower shrouds go reasonably far aft of the mast I would not fit runners.
 
Re: (c) - and some notes.

I certainly wasn't advocating dispensing with a forestay, merely saying you don't really need two. Of course the one from say the hounds to the stem head should be as strong as possible - it is absolutely crucial to the mast stability. But having one on the bowsprit is really only for appearance purposes, and does have the complication of tending to impede furling of the W-M if the sail is thrashing about a lot. One big advantage of a W-M is that you can furl the sail on virtually any point of sailing, even when running.

Everyone is discussing bowsprit length in terms of convenience, and ease of working and staying. But the over-riding issue is how much you NEED, in order to give the necessary sail area forward to balance the main.
You might consider mine (8 foot projecting, on a 21 foot cutter from about 1880) a bit excessive, but that is what is needed to put the centre of effort in the right place. It does have its own forestay, but it runs to the topmast not the lower mast, so is well clear of the jib luff.
 
This is how she looked today when daughter #3 and I went for a wee sail.

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Mariposa2-1.jpg
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Mariposa1-1.jpg
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I thought it was just the photo angle making them look different.

Looking at these pics, I think you're probably quite right to do without a forestay. I'm not usually a proponent of circumcision, though, and will be keep both my forestays.

/<
 
These are the first pics I have of Mariposa under sail. Now I can see what others see I'm leaning towards a new stay from stemhead to the hounds.
The bowsprit will be 3'6" - 4' long with <u>no</u> permanent stay. The jib will have a wire luff and be on W/M gear as stated.
With the jib furled and a reef in the main she should be well balanced with little chance of the mast crashing down about my ears.
 
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