Current sailboat owner has lost certificates and documents

[CatoJ]

I am in the process of buying a 2006 Oceanis 323. I've just learnt that the owner cannot find the Owner's Manual, Builder's Certificate and Certificate of Conformity.

What are the potential consequences of this? How can this be remedied?

Whilst I have crewed a lot in the past I am new to owning a boat.

 

[sailaboutvic]

The brokers who sold the boat in the begin should have copy's , if not use thr hin number and contact Ben or ask another Bene dealer if they can get copy's

 

[prv]

I have an Owner's Manual and Builder's Certificate for our boat, but I cannot see any particular value in them. I'm also not aware of any reason why you'd need a Certificate of Conformity.

Our Owner's Manual includes only basic stuff that should be obvious to anyone familiar with boats. The Builder's Certificate certifies that the builder built the boat - well, I know he did because I'm standing in it. So what?

There's some small value to an invoice showing that VAT was paid when the boat was first bought. Can't see any use for the others.

Pete

 

[CatoJ]

I have an Owner's Manual and Builder's Certificate for our boat, but I cannot see any particular value in them. I'm also not aware of any reason why you'd need a Certificate of Conformity.

Our Owner's Manual includes only basic stuff that should be obvious to anyone familiar with boats. The Builder's Certificate certifies that the builder built the boat - well, I know he did because I'm standing in it. So what?

There's some small value to an invoice showing that VAT was paid when the boat was first bought. Can't see any use for the others.

Pete

Thanks, what you say makes sense. And, it is the Certificate of Conformity I worry about. Would this be necessary when sailing in French waters? And, when it comes to selling the boat again, might the lack of it cause problems?

 

[sailaboutvic]

I have an Owner's Manual and Builder's Certificate for our boat, but I cannot see any particular value in them. I'm also not aware of any reason why you'd need a Certificate of Conformity.

Our Owner's Manual includes only basic stuff that should be obvious to anyone familiar with boats. The Builder's Certificate certifies that the builder built the boat - well, I know he did because I'm standing in it. So what?

There's some small value to an invoice showing that VAT was paid when the boat was first bought. Can't see any use for the others.

Pete

I agree there. Isn't must use but it common for them to be pass on from owner to owner , and most people want them .
As for the invoice showing VAT , I personally wouldn't buy a boat without one , it becoming more common if you go aboard to be asked to show prove of VAT payment .

 

[lw395]

Thanks, what you say makes sense. And, it is the Certificate of Conformity I worry about. Would this be necessary when sailing in French waters? And, when it comes to selling the boat again, might the lack of it cause problems?

The C of C will be for that design of boat rather than the individual?
It is the VAT trail that matters.
I would talk to the importers or builders.

 

[Garold]

Paperwork is more important these days. (For selling, insurance claims, for customs checks, for some foreign marinas etc).

I'd have to ask the seller to sort out the problem before completing the deal.

Then again, it depends how much you are paying.

Garold

 

[Tranona]

Thanks, what you say makes sense. And, it is the Certificate of Conformity I worry about. Would this be necessary when sailing in French waters? And, when it comes to selling the boat again, might the lack of it cause problems?

Not at all. While it is useful to have the Certificate of Conformity is only required at the time the boat first enters service. There is no requirement to show it subsequently, either here or in France. Unsurprising really as most boats no longer conform once they have been used as owners change or add equipment. The certificate is not specific to your boat as it is just a page in the manual that is provided when the boat is new. You may well find that the evidence for the boat is still there in the form of the CE plate somewhere prominent on the boat, usually in the cockpit. The only time a certificate of conformity is important is if the boat was privately imported and underwent post construction certification. On a regular production boat like yours there is zero chance that it did not comply.

The builders Certificate is a nice thing to have because that is the record of completion at the factory. However, more important is to have the bill of Sale from the factory to the dealer and the dealer to the original owner. You are lucky with a Beneteau in that the dealer (probably Ancasta) is still in business and may well have copies of all the original documentation. I bought my boat new from Clipper and they kept a copy of all the documents specific to the boat.

 

[CatoJ]

Not at all. While it is useful to have the Certificate of Conformity is only required at the time the boat first enters service. There is no requirement to show it subsequently, either here or in France. Unsurprising really as most boats no longer conform once they have been used as owners change or add equipment. The certificate is not specific to your boat as it is just a page in the manual that is provided when the boat is new. You may well find that the evidence for the boat is still there in the form of the CE plate somewhere prominent on the boat, usually in the cockpit. The only time a certificate of conformity is important is if the boat was privately imported and underwent post construction certification. On a regular production boat like yours there is zero chance that it did not comply.

The builders Certificate is a nice thing to have because that is the record of completion at the factory. However, more important is to have the bill of Sale from the factory to the dealer and the dealer to the original owner. You are lucky with a Beneteau in that the dealer (probably Ancasta) is still in business and may well have copies of all the original documentation. I bought my boat new from Clipper and they kept a copy of all the documents specific to the boat.

Thanks Tranona, I shall ask the broker to get the bill of sale papertrail...

 

[superheat6k]

Having a clean title is IMHO crucial later when you come to sell, especially for a newer boat such as this 2006 one.

The question you need to ask is would not having these documents affect your later ability to sell. You have raised this concern now as a buyer, well so might many other would be buyers.

Were you informed the title documents were all available when or before you placed an offer ?

I would make this the vendor's or his brokers problem, and if you are dissatisfied with the result then you may have to think about finding another boat. If such documents were advised to be all present and now they are not this is a fundamental breach of the contract and for which you should be entitled to a full refund of deposit and possibly any costs you may have incurred, such as a survey fee.

 

[Tranona]

Having a clean title is IMHO crucial later when you come to sell, especially for a newer boat such as this 2006 one.

The question you need to ask is would not having these documents affect your later ability to sell. You have raised this concern now as a buyer, well so might many other would be buyers.

Were you informed the title documents were all available when or before you placed an offer ?

I would make this the vendor's or his brokers problem, and if you are dissatisfied with the result then you may have to think about finding another boat. If such documents were advised to be all present and now they are not this is a fundamental breach of the contract and for which you should be entitled to a full refund of deposit and possibly any costs you may have incurred, such as a survey fee.

The missing documents are not to do with title and absence is not a reason for not proceeding. It is the manual which is missing and a copy of that is easily obtained. The Builders Certificate is nice to have, but it commonly gets lost as the Bill of Sale trumps it as document of title.

Nothing to really worry about for the OP.

 

[EdWingfield]

I'm just adding an update of Customs checks and Marina requests, for anyone thinking of Holland/Belgium/France.

Over-wintering in Holland - valid insurance
Douane boarded in Belgium. they arrived by car to the marina. they wanted to see all the usual docs inc radio licence, but not the docs the OP is concerned about. Also passport, home address and wanted a little history of recent travels.
France. A Douane cutter appeared at speed and tracked me on the stbd quarter. they asked questions over the radio. They shadowed me for maybe 10 mins, then wished me happy sailing.

This suggests to me Customs/Douane are cooperating Internationally?

nb. Red diesel seems not to be an issue.
nb. The Belgian check was scary, but only because of their warnings of people-smuggling gangs operating and offering large bribes to go to Blighty with 10 illegals. (in a 10m boat) I removed the red ensign after they'd gone.

 

[jwilson]

The missing documents are not to do with title and absence is not a reason for not proceeding. It is the manual which is missing and a copy of that is easily obtained. The Builders Certificate is nice to have, but it commonly gets lost as the Bill of Sale trumps it as document of title.

Nothing to really worry about for the OP.

Agreed - as long as other documents such as Bill of Sale and ( on a boat of this age and value ) VAT paperwork is available and correct, the only things the CofC does is give a paper copy of the hull no and CE category already marked on the hull itself as evidence that when the boat was new Beneteau claimed it conformed to the current CE regulations. Google it and you will find a 323 owners manual online.

 

[Seven Spades]

You only need three things. proof of ownership, proof of VAT and a plate with a CE mark on the boat. You don't need anything else although it is nice to have an owners manual.

 

[cmedsailor]

Beneteau has an excellent after sales service. If you contact the factory directly giving them the hull number of the boat they will most probably be able to provide you with copies of these documents.

 

[prv]

Agreed - as long as other documents such as Bill of Sale and ( on a boat of this age and value ) VAT paperwork is available and correct, the only things the CofC does is give a paper copy of the hull no and CE category already marked on the hull itself as evidence that when the boat was new Beneteau claimed it conformed to the current CE regulations. Google it and you will find a 323 owners manual online.

And in case the OP's not aware, this guy's a broker and ought to know what he's talking about :encouragement:

Pete

 

[Birdseye]

I have an Owner's Manual and Builder's Certificate for our boat, but I cannot see any particular value in them. I'm also not aware of any reason why you'd need a Certificate of Conformity.

Our Owner's Manual includes only basic stuff that should be obvious to anyone familiar with boats. The Builder's Certificate certifies that the builder built the boat - well, I know he did because I'm standing in it. So what?

There's some small value to an invoice showing that VAT was paid when the boat was first bought. Can't see any use for the others.

Pete

He's right - provided that you buy and sell in the UK. If you try to sell to some worthy oriental from say Holland, then you might have bureaucrat problems.

For example, when you sell british registered cars to johnny foreigner you often require the cert of conformability.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Agreed - as long as other documents such as Bill of Sale and ( on a boat of this age and value ) VAT paperwork is available and correct, the only things the CofC does is give a paper copy of the hull no and CE category already marked on the hull itself as evidence that when the boat was new Beneteau claimed it conformed to the current CE regulations. Google it and you will find a 323 owners manual online.

And in case the OP's not aware, this guy's a broker and ought to know what he's talking about :encouragement:

Pete

However, when selling my last boat my broker was insistent that the certificate was needed in addition to the CE plate mounted in the cockpit.

 

[prv]

However, when selling my last boat my broker was insistent that the certificate was needed in addition to the CE plate mounted in the cockpit.

Could he explain why?

Pete

 

[JumbleDuck]

You only need three things. proof of ownership, proof of VAT and a plate with a CE mark on the boat.

Why would he need a plate with a CE mark?