bekasi
Active Member
Any views on the Diamond Series BTA 5.9 ,commercially rated 220hp @ 2600rpm Cummins Mechanical engines?Its jacket water after cooled-fresh water-are they good/bad?
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Cummins mechanical engines
- Thread starter bekasi
- Start date
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Jut to be pedantic a few facts adrift here.
Up to 210 Hp 6BT turbo only, next rating up 260 hp with JWAC, 315 to 370 Sea water aftercooled.
I assume you are referring to JWAC 260 @ 2,600, big Bosch P7100 fuel pump.
Built in Britain
JWAC motors bomb proof, no charge cooler maintainence, super simple.
Special tools required, none.
Consumeables fuel and oil filters less than £15 for the two.
Weak points, header tank brackets can fracture, and Sherwood raw water pump is not the best, 3,000 hours and body is shot.
For the last three years the worlds largest selling one litre per cylinder engine so must be doing somthing right!
Divemaster1
Well-Known Member
Cracking engine !! would have them myself any time....
anything under 350 hp is rock solid, the 480 rating did round britain in a couple of boats without any problems.
Higher ratings mean more sensitive cooling systems, but when kept in tune and maintined, they should last a lifetime..
Depends on what ratings you plan to go for .... when you get to 480 out of the block, you are getting into hot-rod stuff from a HP / Volume rating area, so jury on how reliable they will be is still out there, but believe they have had far less failures on this 480 than Volvo have had on their D6's at high ratings.. Got a freind with two 5.9's rated at 300 and only problem he's had in nearly 8 years of operation, is a raw water pump shaft failure...
anything under 350 hp is rock solid, the 480 rating did round britain in a couple of boats without any problems.
Higher ratings mean more sensitive cooling systems, but when kept in tune and maintined, they should last a lifetime..
Depends on what ratings you plan to go for .... when you get to 480 out of the block, you are getting into hot-rod stuff from a HP / Volume rating area, so jury on how reliable they will be is still out there, but believe they have had far less failures on this 480 than Volvo have had on their D6's at high ratings.. Got a freind with two 5.9's rated at 300 and only problem he's had in nearly 8 years of operation, is a raw water pump shaft failure...
bekasi
Active Member
Thanks latestarter,
Heard alot of good regarding this engines,the website says Diamond Series 220hp @ 2600rpm,BTA 5.9.But I am pretty sure no seawater after cooler.There was a replacement to the sherwood water pumps that lasts long-do you know which brand was that for this engine?
Heard alot of good regarding this engines,the website says Diamond Series 220hp @ 2600rpm,BTA 5.9.But I am pretty sure no seawater after cooler.There was a replacement to the sherwood water pumps that lasts long-do you know which brand was that for this engine?
bekasi
Active Member
Divemaster1,
looking at the 220hp @ 2500rpm BTA,Diamond Series.
looking at the 220hp @ 2500rpm BTA,Diamond Series.
Divemaster1
Well-Known Member
Will be a BT 5.9 .... "A" is for Aftercooler.... and rated at 210 for commercial..
http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/commercial/inboards/Diamond/diamond6BT59-M115.html
... or BTA if rated 225 and above....
http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/commercial/inboards/Diamond/diamond6BTA59-M225.html
Should be rock solid in principle, but as usual good maintenance is key .... as for any engine!...
...and if raw water pump is only worry, that is to replace at 2000 hours as preventative maintenance...
http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/commercial/inboards/Diamond/diamond6BT59-M115.html
... or BTA if rated 225 and above....
http://www.cmdmarine.com/engines/commercial/inboards/Diamond/diamond6BTA59-M225.html
Should be rock solid in principle, but as usual good maintenance is key .... as for any engine!...
...and if raw water pump is only worry, that is to replace at 2000 hours as preventative maintenance...
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bekasi
Active Member
The info I got from dealer states:
CUMMINS PREMIUM MARINE ENGINE
MODEL : 220B DIAMOND PERFORMANCE SERIES
CONFIGURATION : 6 CYLINDER INLINE 5.9L DIRECT INJECTION
TURBOCHARGED
METRIC HORSEPOWER : 220 @ 2600 RPM
KW : 157 @ 2600 RPM
RATING : HIGH OUTPUT RATING
FOR USE UP TO 300 HOURS PER YEAR
NON REVENUE EARNING
SPECIFICATION
Heat exchanger cooling with fresh water header tank
SAE 3 Flywheel Housing
Flywheel
Front engine mount brackets with 22.1/2" mounting centers
Set of adjustable mounting isolators
Canister engine oil and fuel filter
Dry type engine air cleaner
Delco Remy 12 volt starter 12 volt 65 amp alternator
Gear driven raw water pump
Stainless raw water cooled exhaust outlet elbow
Fresh water cooled exhaust manifold
Fresh water cooled turbocharger
Engine instrument panel with 12 volt illuminated V.D.O. marine quality gauges,
engine senders, engine loom and 6.5 metre engine to panel loom
GAUGES FOR ALARMS FOR:
1) Tachometer with hourmeter (a Low engine oil pressure
2) Voltmeter (b High engine water temperature
3) Engine oil pressure
4) Engine water temperature
What do you think-which one is it? Non-after cooled?
CUMMINS PREMIUM MARINE ENGINE
MODEL : 220B DIAMOND PERFORMANCE SERIES
CONFIGURATION : 6 CYLINDER INLINE 5.9L DIRECT INJECTION
TURBOCHARGED
METRIC HORSEPOWER : 220 @ 2600 RPM
KW : 157 @ 2600 RPM
RATING : HIGH OUTPUT RATING
FOR USE UP TO 300 HOURS PER YEAR
NON REVENUE EARNING
SPECIFICATION
Heat exchanger cooling with fresh water header tank
SAE 3 Flywheel Housing
Flywheel
Front engine mount brackets with 22.1/2" mounting centers
Set of adjustable mounting isolators
Canister engine oil and fuel filter
Dry type engine air cleaner
Delco Remy 12 volt starter 12 volt 65 amp alternator
Gear driven raw water pump
Stainless raw water cooled exhaust outlet elbow
Fresh water cooled exhaust manifold
Fresh water cooled turbocharger
Engine instrument panel with 12 volt illuminated V.D.O. marine quality gauges,
engine senders, engine loom and 6.5 metre engine to panel loom
GAUGES FOR ALARMS FOR:
1) Tachometer with hourmeter (a Low engine oil pressure
2) Voltmeter (b High engine water temperature
3) Engine oil pressure
4) Engine water temperature
What do you think-which one is it? Non-after cooled?
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Sorry for the confusion. Look at the second link on divemasters post. You will see that 225 and 260 are both CPL 2956, they are same engine, A de-rate on the curve by 100 rpm which passed under my radar.
CPL is Control Parts List or Critical Parts List, simple Cummins speak for the recipie of parts which go into an engine, therefore same CPL means the same engine, just a different fuel calibration.
Another point is Cummins warranty, you can do servicing yourself providing it meets guidelines under 'owners responsibilities', no requirement for approved dealer servicing to maintain warranty.
Take a look at Seaboard Marine in the US, they have developed replacement for the Sherwood pump known as SeaMax, CAT and Deere also use same Sherwood pump and suffer the same problems.
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Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
QSB 425 apparently had such low rate of warranty claims now been released as commercial rating, friend at Yanmar Distributor in the US told me two years ago that Yanmar US purchased two 480's to run up against LYA3 480's apparently they have yet to find the fuse, they cannot break it!
Oh and I know it is an obsession of mine, but it is rebuildable if you do eventually manage to bust it, full range of service components available.
Assassin
Well-Known Member
These are fantastic engines, and are available in all variants from automotive, industrial, marine, and many others.
Over the years while acting in a consultant capacity, i switched many companies to these engines in "critical applications" use and everyone raved about them, but a word of warning. These engines are predominantly UK built, but more are being built stateside due to the downturn in the economy and the American engines are nowhere as good as the UK built engines, they suffer numerous irritating problems. These may be irritating in industrial applications, but in marine guise they could be serious problems.
Many of the UK airports use them now in localised critical back up applications which are usually runway lights, aircraft control systems (control tower and radar), and localised lighting such as emergency lighting applications. In the airports in which they are used in such applications they have never failed to start first time, never broken down during emergency back up training, and even run at over rated duty cycles. This led to them specifying these engines in a range of equipment where they were an option engine, these include specialised airport vehicles and GPU's (ground power units) which supply power to stationary aircraft. This is a testament to the ability of the engines, the only proviso is they have to be the UK built engines.
Over the years while acting in a consultant capacity, i switched many companies to these engines in "critical applications" use and everyone raved about them, but a word of warning. These engines are predominantly UK built, but more are being built stateside due to the downturn in the economy and the American engines are nowhere as good as the UK built engines, they suffer numerous irritating problems. These may be irritating in industrial applications, but in marine guise they could be serious problems.
Many of the UK airports use them now in localised critical back up applications which are usually runway lights, aircraft control systems (control tower and radar), and localised lighting such as emergency lighting applications. In the airports in which they are used in such applications they have never failed to start first time, never broken down during emergency back up training, and even run at over rated duty cycles. This led to them specifying these engines in a range of equipment where they were an option engine, these include specialised airport vehicles and GPU's (ground power units) which supply power to stationary aircraft. This is a testament to the ability of the engines, the only proviso is they have to be the UK built engines.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I would defer to your comments, Darlington built motors have zero issues, once got involved in city buses in South Africa years ago, built in China, purchased because they were #1 cheap and #2 had Cummins B Series engines. At the time Dong Feng B Series were hopeless, I am told quality is far better now, however we ended up replacing every single one with kits out of Darlington. Many years on and they are still in service.
bekasi
Active Member
Dear All,
Got news from Cummins NZ that mechanical recreational engines will cease from December 2009.Had to go full displacement hulls with the new catamaran design & specified twin 4 cylinder John Deere's (135hp).Build will be at a later stage.
Design profile can be viewed on:
http://www.noahthompsondesign.com/
Latest designs-14m aluminium sport fisher sedan
Got news from Cummins NZ that mechanical recreational engines will cease from December 2009.Had to go full displacement hulls with the new catamaran design & specified twin 4 cylinder John Deere's (135hp).Build will be at a later stage.
Design profile can be viewed on:
http://www.noahthompsondesign.com/
Latest designs-14m aluminium sport fisher sedan
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
They are still available. Has been illegal to sell engines not certified to EPA Tier II since 2005 in the US. As the mechanical B's & C's were still in demand for re-powers CMD came up with a sensible and legal wheeze.
If vessel is a re-power perfectly legal to install a rebuilt motor. A bit of lateral thinking resulted in the mechanical engines being re-baged as reconditioned products under the Cummins DieselRecon banner. same warranty same everything, and units are 100% new. Cleverly listed as exchange units requiring old unit, then when you go to the price list there is a non return surcharge. If you add reconditioned price to the surcharge, you end up with similar price to a 'new' 'new' old motor.
If this is for a new build I would go for a QSB 230 metric 225 hp, absolute power house. Is producing over 200 hp at 1,600 rpm, then pretty much flat lines with constant power up 2,600 rpm. Super quiet, smooth, zero visible smoke.
http://www.cmdmarine.com/Products/Recreational Inboard/QSB/Fr91370.pdf
bekasi
Active Member
Hi Latestarter1,
Yes,that 230hp QSB was my first choice replacement BUT weight was a damn big factor for the displacement hulls to go to the 4 cylinder JD's (462kg compared to 612kg for QSB).
Yes,that 230hp QSB was my first choice replacement BUT weight was a damn big factor for the displacement hulls to go to the 4 cylinder JD's (462kg compared to 612kg for QSB).
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Lot less power than your original target, however Deere 4045 is real nice robust little motor and surprisingly smooth for four jugs.
Good luck
bekasi
Active Member
Thanks Latestarter1,
Yes,have heard good about these tinnies in gensets & hydraulic prime movers etc!
Anyone else has any comments re this particular model?
Yes,have heard good about these tinnies in gensets & hydraulic prime movers etc!
Anyone else has any comments re this particular model?
D
Deleted User YDKXO
Guest
Sorry to throw a small spanner into this Cummins eulogy but in my business we sell construction machines fitted with Cummins engines. Whilst they are indeed generally reliable, we find the warranty service available from Cummins UK to be poor and we hear the same story from other markets, so much so that the manufacturer of these construction machines is seriously looking at changing engine suppliers. I dont know whether this means you will get poor service for marine engines but its worth checking who will provide service for this engine in your area and what their reputation is like
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I suspect relations between your company and the Cummins Distributor have soured your view. I am close to senior people at Komatsu and know the Terex distributor in Ireland.
Komatsu are firmly of the view that their Cummins IPA engines offer better reliability, durability, and fuel economy than competitve engines.
Terex are going though restructuring and I know that they find pesonalities at the Cummins distributor since they made changes a few years ago hard to deal with with. Whist Terex is going with alternative manufacturer on some machines they openly admit it is due to the Cummins Tier IIIA solution being more expensive to install, however admit by Tier IIIB they may have to switch back to Cummins.
I have been involved with seven re-powers and one new build with QSB's and QSC's over last few years and feedback in all cases has been 100% and the support of local CMD dealers has been faultless. Cummins own marine dealership has had accolades on this forum on parts availability and pricing. I oversaw re-power of Grand Banks from CAT 3176 to QSM11, and Bertie with Detroits to QSC 540's in France, the French distributor who also owns several plant franchises gives excellent back up, and in France that is saying somthing. may be somthing to do with distributor being owned by a German.
Warranty issues are generally all about people not completing paperwork 100% correctly, CMD warranty viewed world wide is seen as excellent, CD Wellingborough let go on many experienced people a while back, never had call to call on CMD warranty here but have had the odd screaming fit with CD over the odd automotive issue, however simply lack of experience of people concerned.
Perhaps would be better to get your guys and CD guys around the table and bang some heads, two sides to every story.
andyc
Well-Known Member
I run 2001 year 330hp diamond engines and only problem ive had in 3 years are as stated above, the shaft seal on the water pump has gone, been refurbished and now gone again.Not sure wether to just get a new pump.I find the 330,s slow to startup when the weather is very cold in the winter.
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
Sherwood pumps are a weak link in any engine they are applied to try this;
http://www.sbmar.com/Products/SM-Pump-History.php.
As to slow start up are to sure batteries have sufficient CCA and that your fuel return in the tank is immersed.
When were the charge air coolers last serviced?
