Cruising Chute, Gennaker and Bowsprit.

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Ian_Rob

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I am looking at buying a Cruising Chute or Gennaker for my Dufour 365 but I’m unclear as to whether I need a bowsprit aswell? Presumably it would allow a larger and better set chute to be flown but .......?? The boat has this as an option and is usually shown with one in brochures but I have never seen a bowspritted version on the water. Would it be significantly preferable?
 
Mine flies off a fitting ( basically just an eye) on the anchor roller which is just proud outside of the pulpit. I have a pulley fitted & a downhaul line lead back to the cockpit winch. In use the chute flies about 3 feet up & can be adjusted, so does not need a bowsprit. Being free flying does allow the foot to swing to windward a bit if freed off when down wind so that helps as well. The sail is cut with a roach in the leading edge.
However, if you were to have a sail cut more like a code zero with a fixed foot I would suspect that it would not work. I agreed my design with the sailmaker ( Hyde) first to accommodate the bow fitting.
31 ft boat 64M2 chute

Others may wish to comment on the next bit :-
May I suggest that one should be careful about getting a chute that is over size. Unlike a spinnaker it is not usually flown down wind but more as a reaching sail. Therefore, it has a greater effect on healing angle of the boat.
So in my case anything over 15 kts & I cannot fly it when single handing as I have to keep freeing it off to prevent the boat broaching & even with a crew it is a pig. With a spinnaker I could go down wind more & carry the area easier.
If i had a smaller cruising chute I could use it in a wider wind range. That may be due to its shape, but I think it is more due to size.
I bet the pictures you have seen are all in light winds !!!
If just cruising one can just fly it on its own, but there is not much point & if a gust came ( as happened to me last year near a sand bank) one may have to drop it quickly & suddenly have no sails at all !!!
In hindsight I wish i had bought a spinnaker instead. But that is a matter for another thread
 
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I considered much the same thing on my Elan 384 this year.

In the end, after discussing it with the sailmakers and realizing that fitting it in the pulpit wasn't practical, i bought a Selden Bowsprit kit at SIBS this year with quite a heavy discount. The same riggers fitted it quite cheaply and it's a nice clean solid installation. I can also remove the pole from the deck when needed (It sits over my anchor chain locker) and clip it to the mast as i don't have a Spinnaker pole.

Gennaker is a 80m2 on a 38' boat.

I've also got a Selden GX-15 furler and adjustable tack swivel. Not cheap, but it's all rigged for easy assembling at sea/marina and sail handling when underway.
 
Dawnrazor said:
I've also got a Selden GX-15 furler and adjustable tack swivel. Not cheap, but it's all rigged for easy assembling at sea/marina and sail handling when underway.
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So does that mean that your chute has a straight luff & is rigged with it tight or do you fly it free when set? I ask because I binned my snuffer after the first couple of goes as it is the work of the devil & i wonder if the sail could be furled on a continuous line furler with a torque line but with the sail allowed to fly free in use
 
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Daydream believer said:
Mine flies off a fitting ( basically just an eye) on the anchor roller which is just proud outside of the pulpit. I have a pulley fitted & a downhaul line lead back to the cockpit winch. In use the chute flies about 3 feet up & can be adjusted, so does not need a bowsprit. Being free flying does allow the foot to swing to windward a bit if freed off when down wind so that helps as well. The sail is cut with a roach in the leading edge.
However, if you were to have a sail cut more like a code zero with a fixed foot I would suspect that it would not work. I agreed my design with the sailmaker ( Hyde) first to accommodate the bow fitting.
31 ft boat 64M2 chute

Others may wish to comment on the next bit :-
May I suggest that one should be careful about getting a chute that is over size. Unlike a spinnaker it is not usually flown down wind but more as a reaching sail. Therefore, it has a greater effect on healing angle of the boat.
So in my case anything over 15 kts & I cannot fly it when single handing as I have to keep freeing it off to prevent the boat broaching & even with a crew it is a pig. With a spinnaker I could go down wind more & carry the area easier.
If i had a smaller cruising chute I could use it in a wider wind range. That may be due to its shape, but I think it is more due to size.
I bet the pictures you have seen are all in light winds !!!
If just cruising one can just fly it on its own, but there is not much point & if a gust came ( as happened to me last year near a sand bank) one may have to drop it quickly & suddenly have no sails at all !!!
In hindsight I wish i had bought a spinnaker instead. But that is a matter for another thread
Click to expand...

I think it depends what you want from your cruising chute.
If you want to go as fast as possible in F4 on a reach, then Db's post I've quoted here will ring true.
Personally what I think is the true purpose of a cruising chute is lighter winds. This is where it makes the difference between dull motoring and interesting sailing. In this mode, it's not correct to say it's a 'just' reaching sail as the boat will sail perhaps 20 to 30 degrees above DDW, with the boat speed bringing the apparent wind a long way forwards.

I think if you want to carry a spinnaker to make fastest passages in F4 or above down wind, then you want a conventional kite.
If you want to reach fast in breeze, then you want something not too big and fairly flat.
But both of these modes will only take your yacht from perhaps 6 knots with white sails to 7 knots powered up under nylon.
Whereas the performance gain in light airs can be huge, from 3 knots wanting to put the engine on, to 5 or 6 knots with the kite up.

Obviously the type of boat will affect things, my experience is mostly with a relatively light boat with an easily driven hull.
I'm also mostly relating to 2-up sailing in a 38ft boat. So we can't push the limits too much, nor do we need to.
But I'm not talking about hanging a nylon bag on the mast, cleating everything and being dragged along by it. To get the best out of these things, you need to sail quite actively, bearing away in the gusts to keep the boat on its feet, and luffing in the lulls to keep power. It pays to work it through waves.
This may all be sounding like hard work, but it's very rewarding when you sail past people motorsailing in their own diesel and gin fumes.

The cut of these things varies enormously. A good cruising chute will fly a long way to windward of the boat's centreline. This enables you to 'soak' a long way downwind.
IMHO, it would pay to get something cut to suit what you want from it. From a decent sailmaker.
You see a lot of hideous mis-shapen chutes. Anything that isn't star-cut or tri-radial is going to be out of shape in no time.

I should point out that my opinions are coloured by sometimes sailing on things like RS800's.
Asy's really come into their own on planing hulls, IMHO a conventional spinnaker still has a place on a cruising yacht.
 
I have a North Gennaker, the tack line wouldn't clear the pulpit and bi-colour properly so i designed a bowsprit that fits over the spare anchor roller, whilst still allowing the roller to be used.

I agree with much of what lw395 says about it's use. I use mine for light winds. I often sail single handed and find the sail easy to use. My heavy 10m boat sails really well with it and i find it's really useful in light winds when i'm more or less DDW and the wind is a bit shifty, as opposed to have the genny up, which might keep trying to collapse in the light wind shifts.
 
PaulRainbow said:
I agree with much of what lw395 says about it's use. I use mine for light winds. I often sail single handed and find the sail easy to use. My heavy 10m boat sails really well with it and i find it's really useful in light winds when i'm more or less DDW and the wind is a bit shifty, as opposed to have the genny up, which might keep trying to collapse in the light wind shifts.
Click to expand...

+1
Boat is a Centurion 32 from 1973 and is 9.75 metres LOA and is quite heavy by today's standards. She has the tiny main as was the custom back in the days of IOR. I normally sail solo and I can handle the asy easily on my own, thanks to an excellent snuffer. I also have two spinnakers that came with the boat but I have never had the guts to try flying them; never liked sailing DDW anyway.
 
Daydream believer said:
Mine flies off a fitting ( basically just an eye) on the anchor roller which is just proud outside of the pulpit. I have a pulley fitted & a downhaul line lead back to the cockpit winch. In use the chute flies about 3 feet up & can be adjusted, so does not need a bowsprit. Being free flying does allow the foot to swing to windward a bit if freed off when down wind so that helps as well. The sail is cut with a roach in the leading edge.
However, if you were to have a sail cut more like a code zero with a fixed foot I would suspect that it would not work. I agreed my design with the sailmaker ( Hyde) first to accommodate the bow fitting.
31 ft boat 64M2 chute

Others may wish to comment on the next bit :-
May I suggest that one should be careful about getting a chute that is over size. Unlike a spinnaker it is not usually flown down wind but more as a reaching sail. Therefore, it has a greater effect on healing angle of the boat.
So in my case anything over 15 kts & I cannot fly it when single handing as I have to keep freeing it off to prevent the boat broaching & even with a crew it is a pig. With a spinnaker I could go down wind more & carry the area easier.
If i had a smaller cruising chute I could use it in a wider wind range. That may be due to its shape, but I think it is more due to size.
I bet the pictures you have seen are all in light winds !!!
If just cruising one can just fly it on its own, but there is not much point & if a gust came ( as happened to me last year near a sand bank) one may have to drop it quickly & suddenly have no sails at all !!!
In hindsight I wish i had bought a spinnaker instead. But that is a matter for another thread
Click to expand...

I do the same - just with a low-friction ring soft-shackled to a shackle at the forward end of a bow roller.

Yes, beware a cruising chute that's too large for the boat. You should be able to take the luff reasonably tight if you tack it right down to the bow, otherwise the thing will too easily overpower the boat, and the higher on the wind you go, the more its inclination to broach. The tack is its taming line, and if there's a lot of twist in the luff with the tack fully on, you're intro trouble territory.

One thing I did a few years ago, having ordered too large a cruising chute myself because of a mis-quoted 'i' sail measurement, was to raise the spectacle on the mast above the fractional forestay and genoa head, through which the chute's halyard is reeved. This enabled us to stretch the chute's luff more tightly, as well as exposing more of its area to the breeze.

I'm glad I did not buy a spinnaker instead though: a kite with a spinnaker pole is far more faff than an asymmetric with a good sock.
 
I have just been through this process. There are 3 main issues to consider.

First how to attach the tack. The critical constraint is that there needs to be a minimum of 30cm clearance between the jib furling drum and the new furler. On some boats this can be achieved by using an existing bit of hardware such as a stem head fitting or a pulpit but on others a prodder or sprit is needed. The latter has an advantage in moving the sail away from the bow into clearer air, but this is not essential. My boat (Bavaria 33) has mounting pads for the Selden sprit moulded in, and some owners have gone this route. However the necessary clearance can be achieved by using the pushpit which can be braced down tot he stem head fitting. I shall be going this route. The latest versions of the boat have a mounting point incorporated in a revised bow roller. Clearly you have to look at the specifics of your boat to see what can be done.

The second issue is how you intend using the sail. There are many different variations on the basic theme from a lightweight genoa, reflecting the fact that many boats now have small 100-110% jibs rather than big overlapping genoas, to full cut downwind sails. Your sailmaker will explain the differences. However the reality is that if you are buying just one sail the common "cruising chute" (names vary!) that can be used from around 80-160 degrees is probably the best compromise.

The third main issue is size. These are light wind sails, typically for less than 15 knots so can be a bit of a handful if large, particularly if single handed or short handed. In my case the GX10 furler will handle up to 80sqm, but I have decided on smaller because I sail on my own. So have gone for approx 65sqm. The basic rig is 55sqm and the boat's design displacement is 5500kgs. Our thinking is that this size will be more tolerant in marginal conditions while still giving the flexibility of a wider range of angles. As ever it is a compromise and it will be interesting to see how it works out next season.

With your boat you will need the next size up furler the GX15 which will allow you a wide range of sizes. Once you have the basic gear installed you can have different size and cut of sils made if you get to the pint where you feel you would benefit from a range. For example I was tempted by a lightweight genoa as the small jib is poor once the wind is light and moving aft, but the amount of time this is an issue seems relatively small in my type of sailing and not sure i can justify both.

Kemp Sails are making mine, but I found most of the others I talked to were offering similar options, although not necessarily the same detail recommendations. The important thing is to have confidence in the one you choose.
 
Daydream believer said:
So does that mean that your chute has a straight luff & is rigged with it tight or do you fly it free when set? I ask because I binned my snuffer after the first couple of goes as it is the work of the devil & i wonder if the sail could be furled on a continuous line furler with a torque line but with the sail allowed to fly free in use
Click to expand...

It's not rigged tight with a straight luff, it flies free.

Furling isn't a big deal, although it does take a bit of effort as the GX-15 furler isn't a huge diameter drum. Once you've got the first few turns in it's not an issue. I didn't entertain the snuffer idea as i knew it'd more hassle than the furler. Each to their own etc.
 
BelleSerene said:
I do the same - just with a low-friction ring soft-shackled to a shackle at the forward end of a bow roller.

Yes, beware a cruising chute that's too large for the boat. You should be able to take the luff reasonably tight if you tack it right down to the bow, otherwise the thing will too easily overpower the boat, and the higher on the wind you go, the more its inclination to broach. The tack is its taming line, and if there's a lot of twist in the luff with the tack fully on, you're intro trouble territory.

One thing I did a few years ago, having ordered too large a cruising chute myself because of a mis-quoted 'i' sail measurement, was to raise the spectacle on the mast above the fractional forestay and genoa head, through which the chute's halyard is reeved. This enabled us to stretch the chute's luff more tightly, as well as exposing more of its area to the breeze.

I'm glad I did not buy a spinnaker instead though: a kite with a spinnaker pole is far more faff than an asymmetric with a good sock.
Click to expand...
People talking about straight luffs and furlers and all that, illustrates the variety of 'chutes'.
Here's a 'proper one':
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1999/J-Boats-J-120-3028183/St.-Maarten-St.-Martin#.Wik_Z9eWSUk
See how the luff is rounded and 'inflated' to windward.

Here is another extreme, a 'screecher':
https://www.rclass.org/seasons/2009...shore-p1030440-1024.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

Most people may be looking for a compromise.


Regarding proper kites being a faff, yes for sure, but as a cruiser, I'd only be looking to put one up on a leg of over 2 hours. For light airs systems can be simplified a bit and made less aggro than the full force racing set up. Obviously if you want to get it up in a short evening sail around the bay, it isn't ideal. Having got away with a few things racing, I do like a bit of sea-room when cruising with kites.
 
lw395 said:
People talking about straight luffs and furlers and all that, illustrates the variety of 'chutes'.
Here's a 'proper one':
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1999/J-Boats-J-120-3028183/St.-Maarten-St.-Martin#.Wik_Z9eWSUk
See how the luff is rounded and 'inflated' to windward.

Here is another extreme, a 'screecher':
https://www.rclass.org/seasons/2009...shore-p1030440-1024.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

Most people may be looking for a compromise.


Regarding proper kites being a faff, yes for sure, but as a cruiser, I'd only be looking to put one up on a leg of over 2 hours. For light airs systems can be simplified a bit and made less aggro than the full force racing set up. Obviously if you want to get it up in a short evening sail around the bay, it isn't ideal. Having got away with a few things racing, I do like a bit of sea-room when cruising with kites.
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Hey, I’m with you. Your first photo is of a racing yacht with a light-airs, deep-reaching asymmetric up. He’d be in trouble rounding up on the wind in that, but he knows it and won’t. He’ll have a tight-reaching sail for use further upwind. Whereas the OP, and by the sound of it you, and incidentally certainly I, can only afford one asymmetric sail which we need to be able to carry us up towards a beam reach in rising breeze without creating danger. So the guy with the great green dragon and ample bosom out front can manage without a straight luff, because he has other suits to change into and crew to make the change. The OP doesn’t.
 
BelleSerene said:
Hey, I’m with you. Your first photo is of a racing yacht with a light-airs, deep-reaching asymmetric up. He’d be in trouble rounding up on the wind in that, but he knows it and won’t. He’ll have a tight-reaching sail for use further upwind. Whereas the OP, and by the sound of it you, and incidentally certainly I, can only afford one asymmetric sail which we need to be able to carry us up towards a beam reach in rising breeze without creating danger. So the guy with the great green dragon and ample bosom out front can manage without a straight luff, because he has other suits to change into and crew to make the change. The OP doesn’t.
Click to expand...

The green sail is extreme, but a cruising chute for downwind work will have a fairly curved luff.
A sail designed around tight reaching isn't that useful for shorthanded work, unless the basic problem is that the white sails are just far too small.
The key in a good asy for getting downwind is that some of the area will set to windward of the boats c/l. That means a lot less net heeling moment, the bulk of the sail is pulling the boat forwards rather than over.
Obviously if you want to reach higher, then you have to accept all the area being to leeward, you won't want so much area and you will be looking at a flatter sail. Tending towards a 'code zero'.

There are a lot of cruising chutes out there which really are not very good for sailing low. Which is a shame if that's where the destination is, as happens a lot in coastal cruising.
OTOH, a lot of cruising sailors seem happy with small (very low overlap) headsail for up wind, chute for across the wind and donkey for downwind.
 
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