Cruiser/Racers

Corsair boats are Farrier designs made cheap, I believe. certainly the Corsair I looked at at SBS was not of a quality that I would be happy to accept. On the other hand my pals epoxy built Farrier 31 is a very impressive but expensive sailing boat.

Isnt there some saying along the lines of " you can have a fast boat, or a big boat or a cheap boat but not all three".
 
Bluenote2 said:
Hanse 301
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The 301 is a bit small & was discontinued some time ago. The Hanse 31 series is suprisingly bigger for that extra length. Due to quality issues with some Hanse you need to look for boats built in the period 2003 to 2005. You will get an excellent boat that will outsail most other older 31's. can be sailed single handed with ease( I have just gone round England S H )
I can beat all the usual old 35's such as halbergs moodys Feelings & the like. Recently I sailed in company with a Swan 39 and an Etap 38 & had no real problem matching their speed
I once did Boulogne to Bradwell, tied up to tied up in dead 11 hours
But it has taken me some years to find the sweet spot with new rigging,mast trim & tension , boat trim etc & some good quality sails & a clean hull to get there
Another fast cruiser range is the Maxi but they are expensive
 
there are two method of finding a quick design, ask on a web site and you will get ever opinion under the sun or do some proper research.

look through the results on past races eg RTI both IRC & ISC for the last couple of years (remenber that 2011 & 2012 were windy), and weight the top 3 results for the designs that fit your 30ft size, simple maths.

for my opinion I have an X-302, finished 2011 47/980+ and 2012 45/820+ in ISC,
 
I forgot the Dehler 29 there are a lot about so you get the odd class race if you cruise abroad for some hols One from our club came 128 in the 2012 round the island race in cruising trim having sailed from the east coast & is not a particular noted helm. 128 is quite good considering the number of professional crews etc that also do the race
 
Daydream believer said:
The 301 is a bit small & was discontinued some time ago.
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Ahem.

As the proud owner of a well loved and well found 301 I take a little issue with the boat being so easily dismissed with reference to a slightly later, dissimilar Hanse from the 31 series. I was quite surprised that the 301 was mentioned in this thread as the OP's listed boats are very different beasts. I don't think any of the earlier Hanses are what he is looking for. The 301 is really a late 80's Aphrodite with different fit out and it is definitely small inside for a boat built until 10 years ago. But the Hanse models since have drifted steadily towards the volume cruiser market and the marque has always been a budget builder (hence starting with buying in old moulds). There are occasionally build quality issues with even the judel and vrolik models and any boat should be bought on condition. All other factors being equal I wouldn't expect the 31 series Hanses to sail any better than a 301. Still, I don't think either is what the OP is looking for.

Anyway, I think that if we could both you and I would trade up to that Swan 39 you were cruising in company with, despite it being a bit small for a near 40 footer and discontinued long ago!
 
What is increasingly troubling me, as a completely inexperienced sailor, is why are mono's so popular for racing vs multi's?

In terms of absolute speed, multi's seem to be much faster, I can understand on a handicap basis why mono's come back into play, but it strikes me as odd that the majority of racers seem to own/race mono's.

I of course may be completely wrong with my assumption here, and there may well be reasoning behind it, but its something that is bugging me, the more I look at multi's....

Is it simply a case or mooring/transport costs, or is there more to it that I am not aware of?
 
vjmehra said:
What is increasingly troubling me, as a completely inexperienced sailor, is why are mono's so popular for racing vs multi's?

In terms of absolute speed, multi's seem to be much faster, I can understand on a handicap basis why mono's come back into play, but it strikes me as odd that the majority of racers seem to own/race mono's.

I of course may be completely wrong with my assumption here, and there may well be reasoning behind it, but its something that is bugging me, the more I look at multi's....

Is it simply a case or mooring/transport costs, or is there more to it that I am not aware of?
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There's no such thing as transport costs for a large multihull essentially, it has to be sailed wherever it is going. Which is much more expensive.

I'm no racer but I'm pretty sure there are different rules/handicaps for multis versus monohulls.

Monohulls cost far less to berth in marinas (no-one keeps committed performance boats on swinging moorings) than multihulls.

my two penny worth.

Anyway your original enquiry was about modestly expensive, modern monohull boats. What sort of racing are you hoping to do?
 
My inital enquiry was for a 30 foot(ish) mono, from what I can see there are plenty of tri's that fit into that category that can be trailored. Infact whilst not essential for me, I can't actually find one that can't be trailored...

As for the racing aspect, I'm being swayed...I naively assumed that a multi was out of my range, but since initally posting it seems that may not be the case.

My potential budget remains at GBP 100-120k (subject to a property deal), which is what I initally posted, however since then, a few multi owners/enthusiats have kindly got in touch, hence my initial search parameters have been widened...
 
vjmehra said:
My inital enquiry was for a 30 foot(ish) mono, from what I can see there are plenty of tri's that fit into that category that can be trailored. Infact whilst not essential for me, I can't actually find one that can't be trailored...

As for the racing aspect, I'm being swayed...I naively assumed that a multi was out of my range, but since initally posting it seems that may not be the case.

My potential budget remains at GBP 100-120k (subject to a property deal), which is what I initally posted, however since then, a few multi owners/enthusiats have kindly got in touch, hence my initial search parameters have been widened...
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OK. out of my experience league on the budget! but a multihull (cat) typically costs 2x the cost of a monohull in a marina. On the south costs that's probably (easily!) 12k a year for a 30ft cat. dunno for a trimaran.

but what I don't get (haven't read the whole thread) is why, as a newish sailor and inexperienced racer, do you want to go all-out for a very racy boat (fast monohull, even moreso fast multihull) as a first boat? from my own experience of owning a modest cruiser/racer monohull they can be very challenging boats to get to grips with when starting out.
 
vjmehra said:
What is increasingly troubling me, as a completely inexperienced sailor, is why are mono's so popular for racing vs multi's?

In terms of absolute speed, multi's seem to be much faster, I can understand on a handicap basis why mono's come back into play, but it strikes me as odd that the majority of racers seem to own/race mono's.

I of course may be completely wrong with my assumption here, and there may well be reasoning behind it, but its something that is bugging me, the more I look at multi's....

Is it simply a case or mooring/transport costs, or is there more to it that I am not aware of?
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There is multihull racing, e.g. the upcoming America's Cup or the Extreme 40 series, but for the amateur there is a lot going for monohull racing.

The first thing you need for racing is sufficient competitive opponents. If a particular class or one design is a bit short of boats it very quickly fades away. So for a start there are far more monohulls about to give competitive racing.

On top of that it is much more difficult to design a multi-hull that fulfils the dual role of cruiser and racer. As a generalisation, competitive multi-hull racers are more extreme than competitive monos. You need to be a very good multi-hull sailor to cruise a racing cat safely in heavy weather.

Then there is berthing costs.

And then there is much more to racing than simple straight line speed. For example, light airs racing is very challenging and requires a lot of concentration despite the lack of speed.

Many of the more exciting moments come in mark roundings at close quarters. The average multhull tacks about as well as the average elephant ballet dances. So those cheeky port tack approaches to the windward mark, which are very satisfying when they come off, become pretty near impossible in a multihull.
 
A tri can be folded down to fit in a mono berth in answer to your first point.

In answer to why, I as an inexperienced sailor, would want to buy a tri as my first boat...because I don't know any better :-)

I'm happy to be told why I shouldn't go down that route...
 
vjmehra said:
A tri can be folded down to fit in a mono berth in answer to your first point.

In answer to why, I as an inexperienced sailor, would want to buy a tri as my first boat...because I don't know any better :-)

I'm happy to be told why I shouldn't go down that route...
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Well I don't know much about trimarans. But I think that perhaps only the smaller ones that I've seen can do that. Can bigger boats in the sort of budget you're working with do that? I'd've thought the sort of trimarans we see here in the Oresund are fixed.

http://www.trimarans.com/boats/dragonfly-28/presentation.aspx

even so, I'd check with the marina first. They might have a very different interpretation of a folding boat. Marinas are not known for their, er, flexibility, especially their willingness to accept your interpretation of how big your boat is.

But you must have a reason for wanting this sort of boat right from the off. You can afford it, okay. It is a beautiful boat, ok. but can you sail it?
 
vjmehra said:
A tri can be folded down to fit in a mono berth in answer to your first point.
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That'll be a Dragonfly. I've heard good reports from someone who raced on one.

However, look at the price. And look at the accommodation you get for it.

You can also get a good view of the underwater profile here :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMoHhilUSoU


vjmehra said:
In answer to why, I as an inexperienced sailor, would want to buy a tri as my first boat...because I don't know any better :-)

I'm happy to be told why I shouldn't go down that route...
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You may well enjoy it. Only thing I'd say is that when you're an inexperienced sailor your tastes change a lot as you gain experience. Everyone is different and has different requirements in a boat, but you should make sure that your choice is still going to be OK for you a year or two after you buy it.
 
Yep, you both make very valid points, hence I'm asking opinions, as I am severely lacking in experience!

The good thing is, that I'm not looking to buy until May (at the earliest), so I have plenty of time and with the help of this forum, hopefully I will have a much better idea by then :-)

The accomodation on a tri is definitely a concern...I suspect that my budget is unlikely to go up, so it may be a case of expectations going down :-(
 
vjmehra said:
Yep, you both make very valid points, hence I'm asking opinions, as I am severely lacking in experience!

The good thing is, that I'm not looking to buy until May (at the earliest), so I have plenty of time and with the help of this forum, hopefully I will have a much better idea by then :-)

The accomodation on a tri is definitely a concern...I suspect that my budget is unlikely to go up, so it may be a case of expectations going down :-(
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But the budget is enormous and you say you aren't that experienced. you could buy a well-found centaur, learn to sail, and even selling it at 50% loss (unlikely) six months later you'd have only blown 5% of your budget to become a competent sailor. You could then go buy one of the extreme boats you are looking at. The alternative- scuffing or damaging a 120k boat because you didn't take six months to learn how not to despite having the funds- seems more expensive to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm not one of the 'start on cheap boats' merchants. But pranging expensive boats whilst learning the ropes is a budget busting business.
 
BitBaltic has a good point about scratching the side of a new boat. There will be a few 'moments' as you learn your boathandling skills. Better to do that with a second hand boat.

Beware also that a flash new racer will require flash crew and if you want to race seriously you'll have to earn their respect. It can be quite hard for a novice owner to do that.

So I still think it is better for you to cut your teeth on a cheaper second hand cruiser/racer and on other people's boats.

Having agreed with BitBaltic above, I don't however agree that his recommendation of a Centaur is at all suitable for you given what you've posted here. It is a slow cruiser that is a good beginner boat for family sailing in reasonably sheltered water, but it'll teach you bugger all about racing and you'll almost certainly find it extremely frustrating.

Even if you decide initially to buy a cruiser and race on OPB's, you'll want a fast cruiser.
 
Yep absolutely, this is why I posted, In my head it is probably far easier than the reality!

I'd love to own my own yacht, but being realistic, I could potentially gain more charter experience first. Or alternatively, simply get something cheaper and upgrade (or not) in a year or two...

What is the better option?
 
One thing I should perhaps point out is that although fairly new to sailing, I do own a RIB, so my close quarters handling at least should be relatively good!

Not that, that means my sailing skills are up to scratch of course, but I'd like to think that I can apply some of that experience at least :-)

Also, I have done my Day Skipper (initally in Turkey) plus a tidal conversion over here.

I'm not trying to suggest I'm experienced, but I can see myself getting slightly frustrated with a slow displacement cruiser (not that I'm suggesting these don't have there place)...
 
vjmehra said:
One thing I should perhaps point out is that although fairly new to sailing, I do own a RIB, so my close quarters handling at least should be relatively good!

Not that, that means my sailing skills are up to scratch of course, but I'd like to think that I can apply some of that experience at least :-)

Also, I have done my Day Skipper (initally in Turkey) plus a tidal conversion over here.

I'm not trying to suggest I'm experienced, but I can see myself getting slightly frustrated with a slow displacement cruiser (not that I'm suggesting these don't have there place)...
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If you're the type that wants to sail fast then you will become very, very frustrated with a boat that doesn't perform well. I know I do.

I'd say keep thinking about buying your boat for now and get yourself onto some racers in the meantime. The Hamble Winter Series and Warsash Spring Series both provide decent racing. Having done those you'll at least have a much better idea of what you're getting into. No doubt, you'll also get extra input from the crew and owners of the boats you race on. You'll also be able to observe how other boats perform and something that whizzes past you might take your fancy (although do bear in mind that the crew can make as much as about 25% difference).
 
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