Crossing Shipping Lanes (again)

[john_morris_uk]

I think I just wrote one

I appreciate that you are a very experienced sailor, and I read your post, but I didn't want to get into an argument with you. (I do think you're wrong by the way) Although the rules don't prohibit you from turning to port its invariably recommended not to unless there are special circumstances (like rocks, hazards or the coast!) in the way. Slow down or turn to starboard is invariably the better option IMHO. Its also what other vessels are expecting you to do.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Baffled why people are baffled.

The OP is crossing shipping lanes but not Traffic Separation Zones.

I know, but it doesn't stop people jumping to conclusions and even making up rules about 'approaching a TSS'.

 

[LadyInBed]

Oh the joy of AIS, if in any risk then call the ship and talk

 

[john_morris_uk]

Oh the joy of AIS, if in any risk then call the ship and talk

Oh the joy of AIS where 99% of the people who used to worry about a ship on the horizon that is heading 'straight towards us' discover that its going nowhere near them.

PS I know that lots of people talk to ships on VHF but its not recommended as a strategy and its not in the IRPCS.

 

[RobbieW]

Oh the joy of AIS where 99% of the people who used to worry about a ship on the horizon that is heading 'straight towards us' discover that its going nowhere near them.

PS I know that lots of people talk to ships on VHF but its not recommended as a strategy and its not in the IRPCS.

hmm, after some years away from the Channel I brought my boat back across from Guernsey to Yarmouth toward the end of September last year, penultimate leg of a trip back from the Med. Perhaps traffic was heavy that Friday but I found the AIS enabled me to see much further than I could by eye and I dithered for a bit on the edge of the w bound lane trying to see a 'gap' that was going to work. Gave up after 15 mins and went across by eyeball, easier on the nerves in the end. Did call one ship but that was the Barfleur on her way to Poole and our paths were crossing with her overtaking and I wanted to be sure she knew I was there - confirmed, well she passed a couple of miles to e of me.

Edit: Note that by lane I mean the extended lines joining the two TSSs in which most, but by no means all, ships will be found

 

[Uricanejack]

I appreciate that you are a very experienced sailor, and I read your post, but I didn't want to get into an argument with you. (I do think you're wrong by the way) Although the rules don't prohibit you from turning to port its invariably recommended not to unless there are special circumstances (like rocks, hazards or the coast!) in the way. Slow down or turn to starboard is invariably the better option IMHO. Its also what other vessels are expecting you to do.

I suppose I come across a quite argumentative or contrary at times.

I don't think I would argue turning to port is recommended. Or disagree with slowing down or turning to starboard being a better option.
I was just pointing out the rules are not absolute. Some one posted turning to port was a breach of rule 15. Which is not quite correct.
I was trying to explain why its not quite correct. Rather than recommending we should all turn to port.

If my explanation is wrong, I am interested in differing opinions and open to a debate to learn or improve understanding rather than an argument. Which would be pointless since I pretty much agree with you as far as practicality. If altering to starboard doesn't look like a god idea. Slowing down works very well.
While we may not always agree. I do respect your opinions. Particularly when you advocate follow the rules. Stand on if you are stand on. Give way if you are give way.

 

[johnalison]

If altering to starboard doesn't look like a god idea. Slowing down works very well.

Although slowing down can be useful, there are occasions when it can lead to loss of steerage way or make further avoiding action difficult or slow. Although my slowing down would be evident to a watch-keeper following me on AIS, I prefer to make a major course change to make the fact that I have acted visible.

For the benefit of scala #26, my sailing-boat has a motor and doesn't cease to be a yacht when I am motoring.

 

[RobbieW]

...For the benefit of scala #26, my sailing-boat has a motor and doesn't cease to be a yacht when I am motoring.

Absolutely, but it does cease to be a sailing vessel for IRPCS purposes - which is the point I believe scala was making

 

[lpdsn]

The OPs question re trafic lanes and not being a TSS is a bit confusing.
Rule 10. applies to adopted TSS.

Because of the way the TSSes are arranged in the English Channel there are very distinct lanes of traffic travelling from one to the next. Obviously between TSSes they are not TSSes so Rule 10 doesn't come into it, but if you see them they really do look like lanes of traffic. Hence why posters are using those terms.

 

[Uricanejack]

hmm, after some years away from the Channel I brought my boat back across from Guernsey to Yarmouth toward the end of September last year, penultimate leg of a trip back from the Med. Perhaps traffic was heavy that Friday but I found the AIS enabled me to see much further than I could by eye and I dithered for a bit on the edge of the w bound lane trying to see a 'gap' that was going to work. Gave up after 15 mins and went across by eyeball, easier on the nerves in the end. Did call one ship but that was the Barfleur on her way to Poole and our paths were crossing with her overtaking and I wanted to be sure she knew I was there - confirmed, well she passed a couple of miles to e of me.

Edit: Note that by lane I mean the extended lines joining the two TSSs in which most, but by no means all, ships will be found

Right on. If visibility is good. not a lot of point in worrying about stuff you cant even see yet. When sailing, I find the Mark 1 eyeball works best.

 

[lpdsn]

Right on. If visibility is good. not a lot of point in worrying about stuff you cant even see yet. When sailing, I find the Mark 1 eyeball works best.

Whilst not disagreeing with what you say, AIS is a valuable tool especially if you make an effort to understand its limitations. I doubt I could spot a ship making a 2 degree course alteration five miles out by eyeball, but I've seen it on AIS, as well as the resumption of original course.

 

[Uricanejack]

Because of the way the TSSes are arranged in the English Channel there are very distinct lanes of traffic travelling from one to the next. Obviously between TSSes they are not TSSes so Rule 10 doesn't come into it, but if you see them they really do look like lanes of traffic. Hence why posters are using those terms.

You are right, The bits between the actual TSS look like, walk like and almost quack like traffic lanes. But they are not as defined by rule 10 or more importantly as adopted by the IMO.
There was a mention of a note on the admiralty chart earlier in this thread. Which is interesting. I have not visited the channel for almost 3 decades so I haven't read the note.
To some extent. I don't think its quite as complicated as some people think. Or quite as scary as it might appear if you haven't crossed the Channel.
Yes its busy. Arguably the busiest shipping route in the world. Not sure how it compares to Malacca or Gib.
Most of the ships do follow the "Lanes" and are quite predictable.
In a busy area. They are usually on a higher state of readiness. Odds are ships are much more dangerous out in the middle of no where when their guard is down. The OOW bored stiff and thinking about football or his girlfriend.

 

[jimbaerselman]

See http://www.jimbsail.info/tss

If in a TSS, not mentioned so far is the ambiguity which arises if your sails are hoisted, in good visiblity, when you're crossing the eastbound lane.

So, my view:
Westbound, try to time your entry to match a gap when crossing at 90 degrees. If you can't:
1. Maintain course and speed
2. If the vessel doesn't give way, when your adrenaline levels tell you to, turn starboard to a parallel course - and be prepared to react appropriately if they also alter starboard.

Eastbound.
1. Hoist cone, Roll/lower jib, Drop main, Motoring light on - all to minimise the chance you'll be identified as a sail boat under sail.
2. Turn starboard to point at their stern. and maintain course until it's clear to both it's a miss.
3. Return to 90 degrees when you feel it's safe to do so, bearing in mind the next boat in the queue

 

[Uricanejack]

Whilst not disagreeing with what you say, AIS is a valuable tool especially if you make an effort to understand its limitations. I doubt I could spot a ship making a 2 degree course alteration five miles out by eyeball, but I've seen it on AIS, as well as the resumption of original course.

AIS is quite amazing. It's a valuable tool. My opinion AIS does not replace the eyeball it enhances the eyeball.
I know quite a few people have anecdotes of spotting ships altering a few degree's X miles out. Even with AIS I will stick with my eyeball.
Beware of making assumptions based on scanty information. He might have altered for you. Or he might have altered for some other reason. He may alter again for some other reason.

 

[lpdsn]

Beware of making assumptions based on scanty information. He might have altered for you. Or he might have altered for some other reason. He may alter again for some other reason.

Visibility in the specific case I mentioned was good enough to know I was the only potential cause. It was a ferry into Larne that had already passed his mate going the other way. I wasn't certain he had altered for me until he resumed course just where you would expect him to.

Obviously limitations with AIS is that the info can be a few minutes old and that the position is the position of the GPS antenna, not necessarily the bow, but as you say Mk1 Eyeball makes the AIS picture clearer when the CPA gets below a mile.

 

[Angele]

See http://www.jimbsail.info/tss

If in a TSS, not mentioned so far......

Not mentioned so far because the OP said:

Imagine motoring in your sailing boat from UK to France (outside the TSS)...

 

[Uricanejack]

Although slowing down can be useful, there are occasions when it can lead to loss of steerage way or make further avoiding action difficult or slow. Although my slowing down would be evident to a watch-keeper following me on AIS, I prefer to make a major course change to make the fact that I have acted visible.

For the benefit of scala #26, my sailing-boat has a motor and doesn't cease to be a yacht when I am motoring.

Yes a bold alteration of course is much more obvious.
I am not familiar with a scala #26.
So I would be guessing what speed you motor at. Between 5 & 6 knots? Slowing from 6 to 5 knots would be almost imperceptible, slowing to minimum steerage way? Under a knot. Noticeable probably.
Loss of steerage way can be a concern. But its relative to where you are. In a narrow channel for sure. But again its relative. Loss of steerage to the small sailing boat or yacht under power in South Hampton will be a bit different to loss of steerage to the tanker in the same channel. Loss of steerage to the same yacht coming into the marina will be quite different to the dingy.

 

[Robin]

Oh the joy of AIS, if in any risk then call the ship and talk

IF at risk, then yes, but not when AIs shows a possible collision with a ship over 10 milkes away still. Rabbit in headlights/might is righ/tonnagerule being applied to an electronic board game is the new paranoia it seems. ( I well know that doesn't apply to you, Monty M,BTW)

I am slightly reassured after too long jousting with the cowboys in the west, that there are fewer here advocating the commercials have right of way always, tonnage overrules all alter course at >5miles voters. Perhaps time has once more shown the Colregs in their latest fully evolved incarnation to be the best (indeed only correct) option to live by.

44 posts in about colregs and no serious blood letting yet. Must be a forum record..

My Channel charts always had lines ruled joining adjacent TSS zones (which lines were known as the 'lanes' on my boat). I found that commercial traffic mostly followed those pencilled in 'lanes' and mostly even the outside edges of them too. That observation often resulted in breakfast, lunch or dinner being taken in the respite area of no man's land between lanes to avoid spilling the wine. Only spoiler being the north/south ferries and fishing boats that believed all the Channel's' fish population lived thereabouts. (like the one with a flashing yellow hazard light that resided in the western approaches north and east of the Ushant TSS.

 

[johnalison]

Yes a bold alteration of course is much more obvious.
I am not familiar with a scala #26.
So I would be guessing what speed you motor at. Between 5 & 6 knots? Slowing from 6 to 5 knots would be almost imperceptible, slowing to minimum steerage way? Under a knot. Noticeable probably.
Loss of steerage way can be a concern. But its relative to where you are. In a narrow channel for sure. But again its relative. Loss of steerage to the small sailing boat or yacht under power in South Hampton will be a bit different to loss of steerage to the tanker in the same channel. Loss of steerage to the same yacht coming into the marina will be quite different to the dingy.

I was imagining the sort of conditions one sometimes gets in the Channel, when it is not windy enough to sail but quite choppy from a mixture of old swell and ship wakes. I normally motor at six knots plus, but if I have to slow to 3-4 then an occasional wave could be awkward. My #26 was referring to a post by scala with the word post carelessly omitted

 

[LadyInBed]

IF at risk, then yes, but not when AIs shows a possible collision with a ship over 10 milkes away still. Rabbit in headlights/might is righ/tonnagerule being applied to an electronic board game is the new paranoia it seems. ( I well know that doesn't apply to you, Monty M,BTW)

Agree, I set my ais alarms to 3 nM and CPA of half a Mile.