Crossing Shipping Lanes (again)

Prasutigus said:
Greetings,
the OP writes 'outside the TSS', and 'motoring'.
The Rules are crystal clear.
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The rules may be but other guidance is less than crystal: Chart notes on BA 2656 suggest vessels crossing between Casquets TSS and the Meridian should do so as nearly as practicable at right angles to traffic flow. I'm not sure a) what legislative weight a chart note carries and b) what practicable means (in H&S legislation I know it means where technically possible).
 
StormNorm said:
The Colregs still apply. You must shape a course to avoid the next ship too. As said above, it's normally fairly easy. On one occasion I've had to avoid a convoy/cluster of six ships. It cost me no more than half-an-hour.
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Surely if you are not in a TSS,( as stated in the OP), you don't avoid other PDV's but stand on, or give way, as a PDV, according to the book?
Actual convoys, or concentrations of FV's, are particular cases of course.
 
Quiddle said:
The rules may be but other guidance is less than crystal: Chart notes on BA 2656 suggest vessels crossing between Casquets TSS and the Meridian should do so as nearly as practicable at right angles to traffic flow. I'm not sure a) what legislative weight a chart note carries and b) what practicable means (in H&S legislation I know it means where technically possible).
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Good question.
 
This is a worry. The colregs are completely clear on this... The OP is motoring, not sailing. Crossing TSS. Normal colreg standon/give way apply assuming no other situations eg fog or RAM or whatever.

1) Westbound lane
As the ship approaches to your port, you are the stand on vessel - so do you confidently maintain speed and course so as not to cause confusion and assume the ship will keep out of your way ?
Yes unless to do so will impede the progress of that vessel.


2) Eastbound lane
Here the ship approaching to your starboard has right of way. What do you do to avoid collision ?
It doesn't have "right of way". It is the stand on vessel.

a) Turn to starboard and and go parallel to him in the opposite direction, until he has passed ?
Acceptable but wasteful of time

b) Turn to starboard and head for his stern, keeping aim at his stern by gradually changing course to port until he has passed ?
Acceptable


c) Turn to port and go parallel to him in the same direction, until he has passed ?
No


d) Maintain course but reduce speed ?
Acceptable
 
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Scala said:
2) Eastbound lane
Here the ship approaching to your starboard has right of way. What do you do to avoid collision ?

a) Turn to starboard and and go parallel to him in the opposite direction, until he has passed ?
Acceptable but wasteful of time
Click to expand...
And in a busy shipping lane wasting time can cause another 'risk of collision' situation, where you have to apply the ColRegs again, which could be otherwise avoided.
 
johnalison said:
It is surprising how seldom problems actually arise. My actions would be similar in both cases initially, since ships will often contrive to avoid yachts from some distance away, and an early change of course will simply confuse matters. I have heard a ship's officer with a very English voice giving a couple of yachts a right telling-off for altering course when they were expected to stand on. If required to alter course, the distance depending on various factors, my action will almost always be a major course change to pass astern of the ship, with sufficient change to make the appearance of my boat recognisably different.
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He's not a yacht. Motoring, he says....
 
East Cardinal said:
2(c) is against colregs
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No it is not.

2 c is a legit strategy in some circumstances.

The advantage in the described scenario. By turning to port instead of starboard the OP is proceding with the general direction of traffic flow in the lane rather than against the direction of traffic flow in the lane.
Reducing speed might be better.
 
Prasutigus said:
Surely if you are not in a TSS,( as stated in the OP), you don't avoid other PDV's but stand on, or give way, as a PDV, according to the book?
Actual convoys, or concentrations of FV's, are particular cases of course.
Click to expand...

I took it that we were referring to a situation where we were the give-way vessel.
 
The OPs question re trafic lanes and not being a TSS is a bit confusing.
Rule 10. applies to adopted TSS
Rule 10 F A vessels navigating near the termination of a traffic separation scheme shall do so with particular caution.

Near means the area extended out from the TSS where traffic is forming up into the lanes or diverging out from having been in thier lanes.

The Chart note refering to the Casquetts and the Meridian. Is just confirming the areas between the actual addopted TSS lines. Rule 10 may still apply as extensions of the TSS. Rule 10 requires vessels in this area to use particular caution.

Not sure if this has ever been tested in court. Exactly what does shall use particular caution mean. The guy who is in charge of the admiralty charts appears to believe it includes cross at right angles.
Personnaly I would prefere not to get into a situation where it needs to be tested in court.

Don't forget rule 2. "nothing in these rules shall exonerate". Yada Yada Yada. So catch 22 the ordinary practice of seamen allways aplies. The rules are not absolute.
 
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Yealm said:
Apologies, I think this has been gone over before... but I'm still not clear what the best set of practical rules are for stress free crossing...

Imagine motoring in your sailing boat from UK to France (outside the TSS) crossing first the westbound and then the eastbound shipping lane.

1) Westbound lane
As the ship approaches to your port, you are the stand on vessel - so do you confidently maintain speed and course so as not to cause confusion and assume the ship will keep out of your way ? Or in practice, is it much more ambiguous and confusing ?

2) Eastbound lane
Here the ship approaching to your starboard has right of way. What do you do to avoid collision ?

a) Turn to starboard and and go parallel to him in the opposite direction, until he has passed ?
b) Turn to starboard and head for his stern, keeping aim at his stern by gradually changing course to port until he has passed ?
c) Turn to port and go parallel to him in the same direction, until he has passed ?
d) Maintain course but reduce speed ?


And if you are sailing, how does that change things ?

Thanks !
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Crossing shipping Lanes?

Depends on the circumstances and conditions. Where. Part of an adopted TSS or not?
My guess you are referring to La Manch or the English Channel.

You don't need to over think it.

The most complicated part which is often misunderstood is the requirement not to impede. In simple terms. The requirement to not impede means don't get in the way in the first place.
How you apply this in practice will vary with the available sea room and the density of traffic.
The answer at Dover might be very different to the answer S of the Isle of white or in my case of Sand Heads or East point.

If you are going to choose not to impede. Do so well ahead of time when the ships are still a long ways off before risk of collision begins to apply.
So If you see a ship or a group of ships coming over the horizon still a long ways of you are free to choose not to impede by taking whatever action you choose including slowing down or altering course to ensure you never are on collision course.

Once the risk of collision exists. Normal rules apply. So ? two power driven vessels crossing. You give way or stand on as the rules require.
In the western approaches or even the middle of the channel this may be the way to go.
Dover Hmm?

If you shut the motor of and proceed under sail. You are most likely to be the stand on vessel in most circumstance.

You appear to have the general idea.
Just remember even as stand on you may still find you are not comfortable with the other vessels action. If you do decide to take action. turn away from the vessel you perceive as the give way. Just in case it wakes up and takes action.

As a small manoeuvrable vessel. I like speed reduction. I find it works well. but again make it obvious a small speed reduction is almost imperceptible a big speed reduction or stopping is readily apparent.

Choosing not to alter to go against the traffic flow is a good example of the practice of good seamen. But may still be ok in some circumstances.

Altering to port. Rule 15 crossing vessels does not say the give way vessel shall not alter to port. Rule 15 requires the give way vessel to keep well clear and if the circumstances admit avoid crossing ahead.
If you are crossing a traffic lane, altering course to port to give way and keep clear of the stand on vessel may be the best course of action and is another good example of the practice of good seamen. Particularly if the stand on vessel is much faster. If you choose to act in this way my advice would be early and make it obvious to the other vessel.

When I am the giveaway vessel I am quite often use the turn to starboard until I am heading for the stern of the stand on vessel and keep steering just astern of it until it is past.
Just remember 1 little catch 22. A succession of small alterations should be avoided. So if there is more than one vessel this may not be the best plan.
If there is a group go behind the last one.

Depending upon the circumstances any of your plans may be best. Make your plan then make it clear what you are doing. Changing your mind might be annoying. The problem isn't so much being annoying, it's confusing. Even being down right wrong is better than being confusing. make your action large enough for your intention to be clear.
 
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Uricanejack said:
No it is not.

2 c is a legit strategy in some circumstances.

The advantage in the described scenario. By turning to port instead of starboard the OP is proceding with the general direction of traffic flow in the lane rather than against the direction of traffic flow in the lane.
Reducing speed might be better.
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Rule 15?
 
East Cardinal said:
Rule 15?
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"RULE 15 Crossing Situation
When two power-driven vessels are crossing so as to involve risk of collision, the vessel which has the other on her own star- board side shall keep out of the way and shall, if the circum- stances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel".

Short to the point with lots of commentary and case law written about it.

As you can see there is no prohibition of an alteration of course to port.
Even the second part of the sentence.

"and shall, if the circum- stances of the case admit, avoid crossing ahead of the other vessel".

Allows for the possibility where the circum-stances do not admit the avoidance of crossing ahead. I can't think of a plausible scenario of the top of my head.

The strategy proposed by the OP. Alter to port and allow the stand on vessel to pass is not a contravention of rule 15 provide it is not an alteration to port to cross ahead. Which could still be in accordance with the rule if the circum-stances do not admit crossing astern.

Now just to annoy everyone and put myself into danger of being criticised heavily, referred to as a dangerous idiot who has never been to sea. I will drift of into some comments about altering to port. :cool:

Rule 14. Head on Situation. Is only rule which specifically requires an alteration to starboard. by saying shall alter to starboard.

"RULE 14 Head-on Situation (a) When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal courses so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

None of the other rules explicitly prohibit an alteration of course to port. Not even rule 19. Rule 19 applies to vessels not in sight of one and other and gives pretty strong direction to avoid an alteration of course to port but stops short of prohibiting an alteration to port. by limiting the shall with "so far as possible"

Rule 19

"(d) A vessel which detects by radar alone the presence of another vessel shall determine if a close-quarters situation is developing and/or risk of collision exists. If so, she shall take avoiding action in ample time, provided that when such action consists of an alteration of course, so far as possible the following shall be avoided:
(i) an alteration of course to port for a vessel forward of the beam, other than for a vessel being overtaken; (ii) an alteration of course towards a vessel abeam or abaft the beam."

This allows for circumstances where an alteration to starboard would not be possible or safe. Admittedly a very rare occurrence.

Although I have specifically quoted rules 10, 14, 15, and 19. No situation is covered by only one rule in isolation.

Rules 1 through 10 always apply. If applicable. 11 to 18 only to vessels in sight of one and other. and 19 when vessels are not in sight of one and other.

Rule 2 or catch 22 always applies and requires the application of the ordinary practice of seamen. which at times may allow for or even require an alteration to port.

If you remember "Yes Minister" Sir Humphrey used to refer to some possible decision's by the Minister as "courageous". I would say "Alterations to Port are often Courageous".

The OP's question about altering to port as a stand on vessel when crossing a traffic lane. to specifically avoid the circumstance of proceeding the "wrong way" against the general direction of flow in the traffic lane. Is one of the few rare situations where an alteration of course to port may actually be recommended.

All of the above applies to action taken by the give way vessel.

Even in a TSS or Narrow channel, I would strongly advise against an alteration towards a give way vessel. Even though I would strongly advise against such an alteration it is not prohibited and may even be required in the extremis when a collision cannot be avoided by action of the give way vessel alone.
 
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