Cross Tide Ground Track

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Jean

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Crossed the channel last weekend, Nab Tower to LeHalve, some 80 miles across tide. Anyway, I'd calculated that east and west tides approximately cancelled, and thus before allowing for leeway, course to steer should be as per the rhumb line direction, but owner/skipper would have none of it, he insisted on staying on the rhumb line (and continuously changing course to do it of course)! An ex RAF engineer and mathematician, he had calculated that his choice was the fastest option (apparently "aircraft fly like this"). I went along with it to keep him happy, but knew the consequences. Naturally, all the fleet (it was a race) were far east of us due to tide (near springs), and we arrived near the end of the fleet, but with the standard of boat, we should have been near the front of it! This and many other concerns, mostly safety, encouraged me to part company in LeHalve, but he has been very bitter since to a sailing colleague who left with me. How would you have handled this?
 
Jean said:
Crossed the channel last weekend, Nab Tower to LeHalve, some 80 miles across tide. Anyway, I'd calculated that east and west tides approximately cancelled, and thus before allowing for leeway, course to steer should be as per the rhumb line direction, but owner/skipper would have none of it, he insisted on staying on the rhumb line (and continuously changing course to do it of course)! An ex RAF engineer and mathematician, he had calculated that his choice was the fastest option (apparently "aircraft fly like this"). I went along with it to keep him happy, but knew the consequences. Naturally, all the fleet (it was a race) were far east of us due to tide (near springs), and we arrived near the end of the fleet, but with the standard of boat, we should have been near the front of it! This and many other concerns, mostly safety, encouraged me to part company in LeHalve, but he has been very bitter since to a sailing colleague who left with me. How would you have handled this?
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same way you did by the sound of it.
If he can be so bombastic when so obviously wrong on the basics, it can't have been fun which is good enough reason to leave - and who knows what else he was wrong about that may have mattered more.
 
I’ve listed 36 concerns (too many to fit in here), many of them safety issues, and included items like “no consideration to SOLAS V whatsoever”, not a clue on sail trim (liked to see the rail under the water on nearly all points of sailing), and lots more.
 
Jean..

On the positive side I commend you for staying on the owners/skippers side whilst sailing even though you had your own views.

I doubly commend you for knowing both sides of the options whilst agreeing with the skippers course/passage plans..

Not easy.. but well done.

(As Elessar says, you did well.. I would have set a compass course from Nab and all things going well I would be happy to still be steering the same course as we arrive at Le Havre. Hopefully the tide would take us West mid stream to be perpendicular to traffic lanes. If wind backs or veers then I would rely on lee bow advantages or wind change to tell me when to change course or tack but with a constant wind then would generally go for straight steered course.)
 
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Jean, there are some distinct issues here.


The shortest distance is not always the quickest one. It's all about boat speed though the water, and it's quite a complicated problem resolving the balance to obtain the best speed towards the objective.

Are you familiar with polar diagrams, VNG, VMC ?


The second issue is that of that of safety. Presumably the boat has passed all the club/race committee checks for physical safety ? Or are there problems with equipment / structure ? If not, then for the sake of future crews, the matter should be raised with the race committee, informally at first perhaps, but if there are serious safety issues, then formally.


Finally, crew loyalty. You did very well to leave at the first reasonable opportunity; it cannot have been a pleasant experience, but it's unlikely this behaviour is a suddenly acquired pattern. Does the owner always sail like this ? Does he have previous 'form' for crew abandoning ship ? Did you enquire about his reputation before you joined ?


There's not very much you can do about the bad-mouthing, except to keep a dignified silence, until the safety and management issues are resolved. If the owner wants to learn to sail fast and win, and keep his crew, then he will have to change the way he sails and runs the boat.


As for the owner being ex-RAF and a mathematician. Nothing can be done. Sometimes you are very lucky and find one who is almost human. ;)
 
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Thank you for the taking the time to comment, and yes, math’s is my pet subject (including at Uni), and I guess that upset him too, as I could not be fogged off with his “excuses” for sticking to the rhumb line ground track. Yes, agree, there are real future safety implications, and I am still considering what best to do about this, and not ruled out reporting him to RORC (the race organisers). Let me give you an example, he blames us for leaving him, his son, and son’s friend (those left onboard), for putting them in “grave danger” (they went ahead and sailed from LeHalve the next day, against my advice as I had checked the deteriorating weather conditions). In the event, they made it home (thank God), but not without damage to the vessel as they slammed through the rough seas (I’d seen the conditions from the ferry). The mast fixings damage even meant that they had to drop all sails and motor home. Money was no object, and they could have simply left the boat there and returned later, but the son and his friend apparently “had” to be back for Uni!
Incidentally, with 20+ years in sail training, I’ve been caught out in all weathers, and loved the experience, but would never have put to sea like they did, risking themselves, and potentially the emergency services lives in the process. Oh, and the reply comment about lee-bowing, such terms are not in his vocabulary.
 
Oh, and I nearly forgot, the anchor was stowed somewhere below, even when not racing and whilst under engine with the sails disabled on their way home. Thankfully, the engine did not fail them as the neared the IOW lee shore!
 
I had an experience with a gung-ho "full speed and damn the torpedoes" skipper back in the 80's. I won't bore you with the "straw that broke the camel's back". Fortunately there were only three of us on the boat. We locked him in his cabin and brought the boat back from Cherbourg between us. He's never spoken to either of us since. "Am I bovvered?"

We may have got "home" late but we did get home and in one piece. I've not even seen the boat on the water since.
 
I was navigating in the same race last weekend and have also had similar experiences with "difficult" skippers in the past.

My method for navigating from Nab to Le Havre was to work out the combined offset for the whole distance which if memory serves me correct was about four knots to the west and apply this to the whole distance to the first mark which was about 60 miles. Allowing a sufficient amount for leeway I think we were steering about 150 true. Using your course steered work out where you should be in an hour and compare that to your present position, this should give you a good idea of how well you are doing and adjust accordingly. By doing this I think we were steering about 160 true by the time we reached the channel mark.

As regards the skippers decisions, it is his boat and if he decides that he knows the best course then it is up to him. Blaming others for his failings however is clearly a sign of his own issues and having been in a similar position in the past your only course of action is to walk away and not sail with him again. That is what I did and I don't regret it.

Having the anchor in a locker and not on the bow is usual in racing, having weight at the bow is not usually very efficient and as long as it is accessible in an emergency I do not see a problem.

My own view is that you should move on, find a crew and boat with like minded people and remember this is supposed to be enjoyable if it isn't then you're doing it wrong.
 
"As regards the skippers decisions, it is his boat and if he decides that he knows the best course then it is up to him. Blaming others for his failings however is clearly a sign of his own issues and having been in a similar position in the past your only course of action is to walk away and not sail with him again. That is what I did and I don't regret it."

"....you should move on, find a crew and boat with like minded people and remember this is supposed to be enjoyable if it isn't then you're doing it wrong. "

+1. ( and so much more clearly expressed that my own post - well done!)
 
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It's all about boat speed though the water

Precisely wrong, I'm afraid. VMG is the key to getting there first, and unless you're tacking that means speed over ground - the fastest way between two bits of hard stuff.

Windy
 
This sounds like a terrible skipper.
However the skipper will not always make the correct decision, they are not infallible.

A great skipper once said to me at the start of a race something like.
If you see a way to make the boat go faster, or be safer, speak up immediately I value all opinions. If however I decide to do things differently expect you to accept that decision and still give a 100%.

If at all possible always do some short costal sailing before going offshore with someone.
 
Jumping ship is a little bit extreme, and one assumes you had good reasons for doing it.

An amateur skipper has invested a lot of his own time and money in the boat, and is, in fairness, entitled to race it as badly as he wishes, provided he isn't endangering anyone. It may be your choice not to sail with him again, either because you prefer to win, or because you just don't get on.

If you set out on a cross channel race you usually feel a bit of an obligation to get the boat home again. Your feeling of obligation is increased if your skill/experience is clearly needed! It it was me, the only reason I would jump ship is if I felt it was way too risky to set off back, AND if the skipper wouldn't listen to reason. You can usually talk someone into a more prudent course of action if they're making unsafe decisions, but if he insists on doing something dangerous, that's a different matter.
 
Jean said:
he insisted on staying on the rhumb line (and continuously changing course to do it of course)! An ex RAF engineer and mathematician, he had calculated that his choice was the fastest option (apparently "aircraft fly like this").
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I know nothing about flying but I suspect this would be a reasonable strategy for a pilot on the assumption that the wind will stay fairly constant in direction and strength for the whole of the flight. The tides, of course, never do...
 
Just had a great day at the London real Food Show, and now catching up: Yes, agree anchor fine below decks for the race (although there was no plan for getting it up and shackled on if needed in a hurry), but once the mast was disabled on passage home from the race, and relying totally on engine, this is not acceptable. Even during the shakedown days prior to the race (his first season with this boat), anchor was similarly stowed below.

As for my departure in LeHalve, a complete indifference to SOLAS V regulations alone was I suggest enough of an issue, but much more too, fills a couple of pages of my notes, so won’t bore you with it all here. Don’t know if you have ever tried sailing the rhumb line ground track across tide, perhaps you should try it some time, constant heading changes and sail trimming needed at the very least, and lots of short tacking when near headed, but he assured me that his mathematical brain could do all the calculations as he considered it the shortest route!

I do not often race, but from the outset, he did not seem to know the difference in the instruction “round to port”, and “leave to port”, and assumed both simply meant “leave to port”. Makes for a shorter ground track, and as not noticed by the officials, we got away with it this time!

Back to some real fun sailing again for the week from tomorrow, on the east coast out of the Orwell; if you are sailing in the area, give us a wave.
 
WindyOut said:
It's all about boat speed though the water

Precisely wrong, I'm afraid. VMG is the key to getting there first, and unless you're tacking that means speed over ground - the fastest way between two bits of hard stuff.

Windy
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, there are two different definitions of VMG. The older definition was VMG towards the direction of the wind and was derived from the boat's log and wind-vane, and the other which is coming into vogue, is VMG to waypoint. In most cases, of course, when going to windward, the best VMG to wind will also give the best VMG to waypoint, though there are presumably exceptions.

It is a shame that the electronics people didn't sort this out, since my instruments can show either, but no distinction is made on the display, unless you know what the display is derived from.
 
I never did mention the Heads: We’d originally planned a day in LeHalve to recover (as short handed and no sleep going across), but as we were coming alongside in Lehalve, owner suddenly decided he wanted to immediately come back (so that son's mate could get back to Uni), without any consideration to planning, and ignoring the fact that the boat was in a disgusting state, and heads were also blocked, and we had a mixed sex crew. He simply said we would follow the straight green line (rhumb line) again on his plotter! That was when the heated discussion started.
 
In most cases it is much more the norm to go on a local 'day sail' first before heading off on a X channel race. I take it that you had not sailed with this guy before (and won't be sailing with him again :D ) so how did you get offered a berth?

If the relationship breaks down and you are not happy to sail back, then IMO you were quite right to bail out.
 
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