Croatia

[jimbaerselman]

Thanks Barnacle. Comparisons are always very helpful.

And you are so right about the food comparison - how the Italians stand it I don't know!

 

[BrianH]

Thanks Barnacle. Comparisons are always very helpful.

Jim, I didn't mean to imply that cruising the northern Italian Adriatic is in any way comparable to the Croatian islands - it isn't. Nor are the anchorages as numerous as the nooks and crannies on the eastern seaboard that can be found, even without buoys. In fact, in Italy one really needs a shallow draught to find them at all - I'm lucky in my long keeler.

And the rather murky water is nothing like the clear waters of Croatia - out of bays like Trogir, for example.

I'm on the hook in the Laguna di Grado at the moment - the ebb is running at over 2 knots and swimming off the boat was exciting just to not get swept away.

Just to keep things in perspective.

 

[Oliveoyl]

Hello Barnac1e,
Just spent a hot afternoon poring over your cruising notes, the T+D pilot, input from Tri39, the 777 book, for our 2 weeks in September. In fact, I think we need 3 weeks! Main challenge appears to be finding water!

 

[jimbaerselman]

Jim, I didn't mean to imply that cruising the northern Italian Adriatic is in any way comparable to the Croatian islands - it isn't.

No, that's OK. I understood that you were just talking costs, and you were shifting costs from (say) 3 stars to 2.

As you suggest, there are many dimensions to the cruising experience in a given area; costs, attractions, yacht support, how crowded and weather factor are just four of them. A balanced view rates some of these 5 star, others 1 star. Attractions in Croatia probably rate 4 or 5 stars, while crowds rate 2 stars in peak season and 3 off season. Meanwhile weather may be 2 off season and 4 high season! Yacht support looks like 4 or 5 stars, if you can push in front of the charter company demands. But that has costs!

 

[BrianH]

Hello Barnac1e,
Just spent a hot afternoon poring over your cruising notes, the T+D pilot, input from Tri39, the 777 book, for our 2 weeks in September. In fact, I think we need 3 weeks! Main challenge appears to be finding water!

The 777 handbook is excellent - although I have a suspicion the latest version is 888 - my own copy is out of date too.

Yes, water is a problem. The rainfall is minimal and the islands have it tanked in and hardly have enough for themselves. If you intend to visit any marinas then, of course, you can fill your tanks. The sea water is warm and clear so you will be swimming a lot and only need a bare rinse of fresh water. I find a liquid soap works in sea water so I use very little water and my 150 litre tank lasts me two months by carrying a locker full of bottled water and using sea water for the initial washing up and cooking potatoes in, for example. But don't try with pasta, far,far too salty I found.

With two weeks out of Pula the logical route is south to the Islands and not the focus of my previous posting (and your original question) on Istria.

From Pula/Veruda/Medulin a Kvarner gulf crossing to Mali Losinj is, in my view, the way to go, with a possible break on the SW side of Unije - choose the northern or central bay, the southern one (Uvala Maracol) has buoys, being near enough to the village, for which one pays. The other two have good holding and perfect refuges in a bora. Watching the feral goats leaping about on the volcanic crags at the water's edge is a diverting bonus.

Once there then Ilovik, gateway to the Dalmatian Islands, is a short hop and an interesting island to visit. From there you can easily make the lunar landscape of the Kornati.

Have a great cruise.

Best, B.

 

[Metabarca]

Just back from a week's cruise from Zara to Trieste. First time in 2 or 3 years and all my prejudices have been fulfilled. Umago is now 20 euros for a 10-metre boat on a buoy (with a discount!). The food is all the same from Umago to Dubrovnik: badly cooked, expensive, badly served, except in a grand total of five expensive restaurants on the entire coast. We had to send back a dish of seafood at Umago (which is, after all, right next to Italy and formerly Italian) and only got away with not paying for it because we spoke the local Istrian dialect. I have no doubt the same microwaved shells appeared later on someone else's plate...
The people are largely as rude as ever. The only thing that has improved is the wine. The islands are beautiful but I am truly fed up with the Croatian racket. I shall probably sell my boat (I'm in Trieste) and charter every so often in friendlier waters.
Numbers are certainly down this year, however. Zara (Zadar) was deserted. Will they learn their lesson?

 

[mattonthesea]

second Mike Bryon

just finished a week charter from Dubrovnik to Split. 36 of us - 6 yachts. Firstly: don't think C8 safety! Not a Croatian requirement. Someone mentioned Ecker - previous experience of them. Would recommend.

Apart from the cost of everythingas mentioned above what infuriated all our skippers (all YMi or very experienced) was their insistence on treating us like idiots. Having briefed the novices in the crew to ignore the marineros it got easier. They would then check with me. I'm not questioning local knowledge type advice but silly things like trying to get a sternline undone and moved while I'm using it as a spring against the wind while the lazy line walla gets sorted!

Two contradictions to this: Korculac: "it's easier to go in bacwards and then find your friends over there" he said and then left us to it. We did; into the tightest med mooring space I have ever seen! And on Vis the chap in the rib was very helpful.

That said - and to show I can live with contradition - despite costing twice as much as our Corfu trip las year we are going to Croatia again next year. Well, one to Croatian and one to Turkey

And if you want an agent in UK then I would recommend Nautilus (No connection). we have booked six holidays (two next year (28 yacht weeks))with them and they have always done a good job.

 

[charles_reed]

second Mike Bryon

just finished a week charter from Dubrovnik to Split. 36 of us - 6 yachts. Firstly: don't think C8 safety! Not a Croatian requirement. Someone mentioned Ecker - previous experience of them. Would recommend.

Apart from the cost of everythingas mentioned above what infuriated all our skippers (all YMi or very experienced) was their insistence on treating us like idiots. Having briefed the novices in the crew to ignore the marineros it got easier. They would then check with me. I'm not questioning local knowledge type advice but silly things like trying to get a sternline undone and moved while I'm using it as a spring against the wind while the lazy line walla gets sorted!

Two contradictions to this: Korculac: "it's easier to go in bacwards and then find your friends over there" he said and then left us to it. We did; into the tightest med mooring space I have ever seen! And on Vis the chap in the rib was very helpful.

That said - and to show I can live with contradition - despite costing twice as much as our Corfu trip las year we are going to Croatia again next year. Well, one to Croatian and one to Turkey

And if you want an agent in UK then I would recommend Nautilus (No connection). we have booked six holidays (two next year (28 yacht weeks))with them and they have always done a good job.

It's a long time since I was last in Croatia - I found Vis by far the most hospitable place (and made quite a few friends there).

I found, the farther S you were, the ruder the locals and more rapacious. I refused to pay the demanded anchoring fee in Trogir and moved just outside the port environs.
Istria, on the whole, was pretty good and Pula has an enormous protected anchorage and an irascible and self-important Immigration.

I certainly don't miss the cooking (bad to appalling), the attempts to part me from my money, but the sailing was pretty good.

Korcula, always anchored in the Luka and dinghied down to town.

One telling phrase from a local when talking about the break-up "... atrocities? I didn't know of any, but if there were any I bet we (Croatians) started them."
He genuinely regretted the break-up of Yugoslavia. Very useful chap, also the local diver, though I never needed his ministrations.

Individually, many nice people. Mind I was never there in high season and always avoided areas around charter-bases (my experience charterers will inevitably ruin any good cruising areas apart from being a danger to themselves and your boat).

 

[Metabarca]

There may be a reason for Vis being one of the friendliest places: it was a military base under Yugo and out of bounds, and so has had the least contact with tourism and the least influx of Croatians from the hinterland. I find the sign describing the history of the island by the jetty funny though: we pass from the Greeks and the Romans to Croatia: no mention of several hundred years of Venice, the French bombardment in 1810/11(?) - the buildings are still pockmarked - the British presence (Fort St George) and sea battle against the French, the Austrian presence, the sea battle between Austria-Hungary and Italy in 1870, the fact it was used as a base by the British in WW2 and by Tito as a bolthole... which are all things that make it interesting. There is a small military cemetery on one side of the bay with British and Italian sailors in it.

 

[BrianH]

I was never there in high season and always avoided areas around charter-bases (my experience charterers will inevitably ruin any good cruising areas apart from being a danger to themselves and your boat).

This should be a subject in its own right but never was a truer word written and never truer than of Croatia.

Charterers have ruined the southern Adriatic - of course, it is really the government that permitted agencies to proliferate to saturation levels with one, and only one, aim of maximizing profits.

Back in 2005 I vowed to never again cruise south of the Kornati, but even Istria, always considered to be the poor relation of Croatian waters, has been opening up to chartering.

Many charterers come with another mentality to cruising folk, they have saved up all year to have a good time in a short period and don't mind spending their money - the locals bump their prices accordingly, knowing that the punters will pay whatever they ask and for whatever they serve them.

They haven't spent the months on preparing the boat and the sailing to reach the area, instead they have stepped on a plane and into a prepared boat. At the end they just leave it and the cleaning to someone else. Nothing wrong with that but it generates an entirely different outlook.

Many charterers join up together to charter a larger craft than they know how to handle, hence the hysterical and entertaining performances one can witness all over Croatian anchorages and moorings.

Such groups will party all night; their kids lark around in the dinghy or by throwing themselves into the water accompanied by much shouting and shrieking with parents offering little in control.

Macho, all-men crews are the worst, out to prove their prowess in both beer-swilling and high-seas story-telling, which gets louder as the former progresses, the loudest components are the bellows of laughter at every sentence. This goes on until the small hours. Lord preserve me from such neighbours.

Grumpy old man rant mode off.

 

[charles_reed]

This should be a subject in its own right but never was a truer word written and never truer than of Croatia.

Charterers have ruined the southern Adriatic - of course, it is really the government that permitted agencies to proliferate to saturation levels with one, and only one, aim of maximizing profits.

Back in 2005 I vowed to never again cruise south of the Kornati, but even Istria, always considered to be the poor relation of Croatian waters, has been opening up to chartering.

Many charterers come with another mentality to cruising folk, they have saved up all year to have a good time in a short period and don't mind spending their money - the locals bump their prices accordingly, knowing that the punters will pay whatever they ask and for whatever they serve them.

They haven't spent the months on preparing the boat and the sailing to reach the area, instead they have stepped on a plane and into a prepared boat. At the end they just leave it and the cleaning to someone else. Nothing wrong with that but it generates an entirely different outlook.

Many charterers join up together to charter a larger craft than they know how to handle, hence the hysterical and entertaining performances one can witness all over Croatian anchorages and moorings.

Such groups will party all night; their kids lark around in the dinghy or by throwing themselves into the water accompanied by much shouting and shrieking with parents offering little in control.

Macho, all-men crews are the worst, out to prove their prowess in both beer-swilling and high-seas story-telling, which gets louder as the former progresses, the loudest components are the bellows of laughter at every sentence. This goes on until the small hours. Lord preserve me from such neighbours.

Grumpy old man rant mode off.

Completely empathise - but I have met some well-behaved, considerate and friendly charterers (describing themselves as delivering) in Greek waters.

Worst, for noise, boat-mishandling and ill-neighbourship are Suddeutsche charterers, IMHO.

On the other hand Norddeutsche are competent, friendly and humourous - but usually not chartering.

Brits, I fear, are fairly high in the list of undesirables.

 

[charles_reed]

There may be a reason for Vis being one of the friendliest places: it was a military base under Yugo and out of bounds, and so has had the least contact with tourism and the least influx of Croatians from the hinterland. I find the sign describing the history of the island by the jetty funny though: we pass from the Greeks and the Romans to Croatia: no mention of several hundred years of Venice, the French bombardment in 1810/11(?) - the buildings are still pockmarked - the British presence (Fort St George) and sea battle against the French, the Austrian presence, the sea battle between Austria-Hungary and Italy in 1870, the fact it was used as a base by the British in WW2 and by Tito as a bolthole... which are all things that make it interesting. There is a small military cemetery on one side of the bay with British and Italian sailors in it.

In fact if you read up Issa in the Croat marine museum, you wouldn't think it was the same battle you are regaled with in Venezia.

I know a lot of the returnees as well as some of those who stayed on. One of those, termed by me "The Mad Extra Mariner" demands that EVERYONE speak nothing but Croat when I enter the bar. He believes in "total immersion". (as he did to the van that refused to get off the ramp of the ferry he commanded).

Most of the returnees were in Melbourne, but one, who went to UK (his son was born in Mile End hospital) makes the most superb red wine (rather like Amorone di Valpolicella) out of late-picked grapes. He really takes chances with it, some of the picking being left until November. Most Vis wine is drinkable but not outstanding.

To clear, out of Vis, I last had to meet up, in a local bar, with the Policeman the previous evening to get all the stamping done (I was off to Bari) and he wasn't going to climb the stairs to his office at the time I wanted to clear.

The centre of the island, where they had the airfield, is now a maze of fields, vineyards and polytunnels - far more energy and less regard for tourism in Vis, than any of the islands except, perhaps, Dugi.

Last point - restaurant comparable to Italian in Kut - one of the few places I've eaten consistently well, but usually fully booked.

All could have changed since Oct 2007 though.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Chartering - Just a thought.

The majority of cruising folk gain their first experiences in charge of a boat as charterers . . .

So have most of us been through this objectionable phase?

 

[Metabarca]

Lissa: much of the Austrian Navy was manned by Venetians, Istrians and Dalmatians (most of the latter Italic rather than Croatian), plus various Slav and Teutonic races, and orders were given in Triestine or Venetian dialect: "Demoghe drento" ("At them, lad!") was Tegetthoff's famous instruction to his helmsman. Garibaldi threw a wobbly when he learned that Venice and its former empire were not interested in being Italian...

 

[BrianH]

Chartering - Just a thought.
The majority of cruising folk gain their first experiences in charge of a boat as charterers . . .
So have most of us been through this objectionable phase?

I think not. It certainly isn't true for me or any of my sailing friends, as far as I know. I slowly moved up from day boats to small cruiser-racers and then to comfortably-sized cruisers under 10 metres. In all of them I cruised extensively, northern Europe when UK based, the Mediterranean later. Owning my own boat didn't leave any spare cash to be chartering and such a thing wasn't even considered.

That's not to say I haven't chartered at all, I did do so twice when I began working abroad and owning my own boat was just not practicable at the time. But since I have had a boat continuously now for 30 years it doesn't come in my mind to charter another.

However, I have been unfaithful once. Last November/December I was asked to make a yacht delivery trip and touched on 13 different Caribbean countries in doing so – a totally new cruising area and experience for me. Despite my eyes being opened to such a cruising paradise I still would not think to charter there – I have my own boat and being aboard that beats any rented boat, anywhere. If I can't get there on my own keel then I don't go.

 

[charles_reed]

Chartering - Just a thought.

The majority of cruising folk gain their first experiences in charge of a boat as charterers . . .

So have most of us been through this objectionable phase?

I suspect it is more the norm now than it was for folk to start with chartering, but I doubt, even now, that the majority start that way.
Many of the charterers I meet have boats at home in the UK and have come away to enjoy some decent sun.

"By their works shall ye know them"

They drive up prices!
They are usually less than considerate to their fellow yachties and frequently arrogant into the bargain.
They seem to motor everywhere!!!
Most of them don't know what the hell to do with an anchor.

 

[grumpygit]

Strange, why do most of the above described seem to be Russian, Rumanian or to a lesser degree Bulgarian charterers ?.....................

______________________________________________________________

 

[charles_reed]

Strange, why do most of the above described seem to be Russian, Rumanian or to a lesser degree Bulgarian charterers ?.....................

______________________________________________________________

To those nationalities I'd add a large slice of Suddeutsche.

 

[BrianH]

To those nationalities I'd add a large slice of Suddeutsche.

All the German-speaking countries (Germany, Austria and Switzerland) have similar requirements to qualify for their sea-going sailing licence, viz. 300 or 1000 nm (depending on category) under the supervision of a qualified skipper. To achieve this, many charter as a group while working for their theory part, long before they buy a boat. Without such a licence they could not put the boat anywhere outside their own country.

By population and demographic distribution, those from southern Germany constitute a majority in the Adriatic, although Austrians are not far behind, having once occupied the eastern seaboard thus effectively making it home waters for them.

However, I suspect Brits are up there too over the last few years, especially with flotilla chartering - by far the most to be feared.