Credit card fraud.

[BobE]

Just thought some of you might be interested in what happened to me at the end of last year…. (September)
One Friday evening I got a phone call from the Nationwide Fraud mob in Swindon.
They asked me if I recognised a total of 5 debits on my Nationwide Visa card.
Two were for small amounts of about £5 each to cinemas in west London
Two were to Pixmania, one for £859 odd and the other for £513 odd
And one for around £600 to Savastore (the online shop of Watford Electronics)
I knew that these were nothing to do with me and the card was immediately cancelled…
Nationwide were very reassuring and told me that the debits on my account would be cancelled.
This all happened on a Friday evening.
The following Monday I was down at the boat and got a call from SWMBO telling me that, on return from her trip to the village, she'd found a City link card in the letterbox advising us that they'd been "Unable to deliver a consignment to us.
We were not expecting a delivery and anyway, although the address was correct it was consigned to a " Mr John Nay"
Of course we contacted Nationwide Card Fraud and phone City Link telling them to hold the goods at their depot. They said that the consignment was a Television set from Watkins Electronics!
The next day Tuesday I got on the web and found that the Savastore site was Watford Electronics, phoned them up, and discovered that they had a record of a John Nay at my address!
They also told me that the goods had been collected and signed for at City Link Southampton the previous night at 8 p.m.!
City Link's card said that they would not release the goods without production of the card. And in any case we'd told them to hold the thing for further instructions!

So someone, somewhere had cloned my card details, and my address, and probably stolen John Nay's identification as well. And they got the TV!

I've now opened a second Nationwide flex account without a Credit card or overdraft facility but with a debit card. So now if I buy by phone or Internet I check the price first, then transfer the money to the new account (Internet Banking has it's uses) and use the debit card…. So far so good…
BTW I did buy a scanner from Watford Electronics back in 2000 but I've never used Pixmania. The Pixmania goods were, I believe, not sent 'cause Nationwide fraud probably caught the transaction in time.
The London Cinema were, I'm told, probably just tests to see that the crooks had valid card details.

So watch it when you buy by card and I wonder about City Link releasing the TV despite the printed warning that the card they stuffed through my door was needed!

Cheers and a Happy New Year Bob E……

 

[BrendanS]

Happens a great deal, and not the fault of any of the companies you mention, they are as much victims as you.

Did Nationwide ever delve into where the information was gained from?

 

[BobE]

Don't know.
They were a bitty reticent about how they found out... I guess they must have some sort of program that throws up "unusual" transactions. Certainly happens when I'm supermarketing in Cherbourg or wherever. I have a phone number to call in that case.
But I usually let them know that I'm off on a jolly before I leave here.

I wonder if anyone knows a John Nay ? Might be interesting to contact him to see if it was his identity that was used.
Obviously he does not exist in my phone books.

Cheers Bob E...

 

[Giblets]

I would imagine it is not particularly difficult to reproduce a "We called while you were out" card.

Having said that, City Link are one of the few courier firms that have requested ID when I have picked up goods from thier depots.

 

[whipper_snapper]

[ QUOTE ]
I've now opened a second Nationwide flex account without a Credit card or overdraft facility but with a debit card. So now if I buy by phone or Internet I check the price first, then transfer the money to the new account (Internet Banking has it's uses) and use the debit card…. So far so good…

[/ QUOTE ]

I have always understood that purchases made by credit card were more ‘protected’ in terms of consumer law than purchases with debit card. The reason being that your contract was with the credit card company not the supplier (or something). I always use just 1 credit card for all online purchases and for nothing else. However, this may be apocryphal - I would be grateful for confirmation or otherwise.

 

[MoodySabre]

I know a John Nay would lives in Benfleet, Essex. Haven't seen him for ages but I'll give him a call later.

 

[jerryat]

[ QUOTE ]


I have always understood that purchases made by credit card were more ‘protected’ in terms of consumer law than purchases with debit card. The reason being that your contract was with the credit card company not the supplier (or something). I always use just 1 credit card for all online purchases and for nothing else. However, this may be apocryphal - I would be grateful for confirmation or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too! I've had a very similar experience to BobE just last week. Again, someone 'bought' or tried to buy £830 worth of something (TV?) from Comet using my Debit card. What alerted me was seing this amount taken from my current account by Comet, but paid back in the next day by them.

Checked with the Lloyds/TSB and was advised to cancel the card which I did. To their credit, my new card was with me three days later.

I contacted Comet to find out as much as I could, particularly where the attempt to purchase had been made and I must say I was very impressed with them. Extremely helpful and reassuring, they confirmed that this was either a telephone or inernet buy, but that for this type of purchase, their security branch ALWAYS make several checks before the goods are released. They wouldn't give me every detail (obviously) but I was surprised, and relieved/pleased that this sort of thing is in place.

So I was lucky in this instance and wonder if I would have been 'protected' if the transaction had gone through on my debit card.

Anyone here in banking give us the heads up??

 

[DeeGee]

First, on-line transactions are far more safe than high-street, but that doesnt mean they absolutely cannot be fraudulently used. Anything which requires you to give details of your card to a human been whether over the phone or by giving them the card for swiping (hence success of chip and pin) is really the worst, so dont give details over the phone. As far as the online transaction with a machine, the details of these are hidden from the trader, as long as you are connected using an https: link and a little padlock will appear in your browser (top line in IE). Look out for that when giving your card details.

Incidentally, living in France, most banking things are not as on the ball as UK, but they are catching up, and I received a circular from my bank offering a 'virtual card' - which is used as a credit card, but is not the actual card. I didnt read the details before I trashed it, as I dont use my French card for online purchases - wish I had. But I suspect these will be coming up in UK soon. I am visiting the bank today, I will get the details....

Nice link on security just here

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Madeo]

Crédit Mutuel down here have a system called Virtualis for paying online; a small programme to download, then you feed in the max amount and in return are given a different card number, valid just for that transaction and amount. Touch wood, seems to work fine...

 

[bedouin]

[ QUOTE ]
I have always understood that purchases made by credit card were more ‘protected’ in terms of consumer law than purchases with debit card. The reason being that your contract was with the credit card company not the supplier (or something). I always use just 1 credit card for all online purchases and for nothing else. However, this may be apocryphal - I would be grateful for confirmation or otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are quite right - within the price range (something like £30 - £10000 but not sure) goods purchased from the UK on a UK credit card are covered by the consumer credit act that makes the credit card company jointing liable for the goods. That is not the case with Debit cards which is an excellent reason to always use a credit card rather than debit card when buying from a source you don't know.

 

[Sheff]

[ QUOTE ]

Two were to Pixmania, one for £859 odd and the other for £513 odd


[/ QUOTE ]

Also happened to me with Nationwide in October.

When I saw the statement with Pixmania (based in Paris) on it I contacted Nationwide as I knew I hadn't had any dealings with Pixmania. They asked me if I'd just returned from France........ turned out there was another £1300-1400 of transactions in France which hadn't yet appeared on my statement.

Nationwide to their credit (no pun intended) sorted things out straight away.

The fact that someone at Nationwide had their laptop stolen with customer details on it 3 months prior was, of course, not relevant according to Nationwide. They stated the information contained was not a security issue. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Cynical? Moi??

 

[Sailfree]

Out of curiosity how long had you had the credit card before the fraud occurred?

Do you have any ideas as to the most likely place your card was cloned/copied?

Notice that Pixmania are mentioned in 2 cases of CC fraud - coincidence?

 

[BobE]

Well thanks for the most interesting comments...
The main point of the new Nationwide Flex account which I've opened
is that it's a completely separate account and has no credit facilities at all...
They did say that I had to have a chequebook but agreed that I didn't need a Credit card...
The debit card therefore only works when there is mony in my "No 2 A/C "

Yes its a pain when you find you want to buy having to move the money. But the Nationwide site has an instant transfer function between all my accounts other than the pass book type..
So if there's nowt in the No 2 a/c someone cannot get anythingout of it...

Of course I dont get the X number of days credit as I would with my Credit card....
But I and Swimbo now sleep soundly at nights ( No comments please /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif )
(Please Xcuse spellin glasses in other end of house!!! /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif)

Cheers Bob E....

 

[BobE]

Sorry don't remember how long I've had that card and its been well n truly destroyed....
I really have bo idea how or when it was cloned, haven't ever dealt with Pixmania and only once in 2000 with Watford Electronics ( Now called Savavstore on the web)
So i think the crook/s simply stole my details and maybe John Nay's identity. Then got an order for certain items, tested the cards in the London cinemas, and then placed their orders....They must have had a contact in the Southampton area and kniwing the sellers transport system and my address had a guy go into City Links depot to collect ... He was probably too late nn the morning to collect from the depot, but incredably went back that evening with I suppose a utility bill or whatever. And got the TV!!!
What amazes me is that we Phoned City Link Salisbury depot ( the number on the card... Told the of our suspicions and said they must not release the packet without our authority... And they still allowed " John Nay" to collect albeit from Southampton the same evening..... T only knew this when the guy at Savastore looked on his screen and confirmed that I'd bought the Scanner in 2000.. Then I asked him if he had a record of John Nay and hes said "Yes, he lives at... Oh that's your address... and the goods were signed for by him last night at 8 PM"!!!

Cheers Bob E.....

 

[DRANNIE]

whats interesting is that he got your address. It must have been more than just your card being cloned as you would not hand over your contact address at a cash point or in a shop. I suspect it must have been something you bought online or mailorder or maybe car van hire, the type of thing where you have to give a contact address.

 

[BobE]

My Nationwide Credit card is only used for my own personal stuff. Computer Kit, Presents for SWIMBO, Camera Kit and of course Boaty stuff.
So I more or less know where it's been used and can only think it was cloned, copied or whatever from a web transaction... (My address has to be given so that they can send me the goods)
I just think there could be someone in an office somewhere copying the info and then passing it to the gang who get the goods fraudulently from a completely different firm and intercept the delivery ??

Cheers Bob E.......

 

[DeeGee]

If you are using https, you are using encrypted secure sockets layer, and your card details are not available to anyone except the computing machinery at the card clearing house. I expect the CIA could crack the system and get your details, but I would put all my money on anything which had a human interaction, high street, restaurant, mailorder....

I have been using c/c for internet purchases since one could (on a few enlightened early sites!!) and have never had (touch wood) a problem. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Parsonsheath]

Can I say young Denbigh that for one so young and cute you do have an acute little brain.

Don't tell me the photo is out of date, just having a smile at the contrast twixt advice and photo.

 

[HenryB]

Sorry Denbigh but you are not correct in your assumption. The https secure transfer is only secure to the computer that the connection is made to which can be operated by anyone. Many web sites, including one that I set up, use https to collect the information and validate it before making a separate connection to the clearing system. Definitely look out for the "lock" sign and don't enter any sensitive data without it but don't assume that it is a guarantee that the transaction is safe.
Regards,
Henry

 

[DeeGee]

Yes, you are quite right. A company could program their system to, say, print out details of all cards passing through for authorisation, and hence be open to examination by a human employee. My statement assumed that one is using one of the world leading credit card services, which have no such holes. It is not a totally correct assumption (when there are guys like you around... joke... ) I am quite aware of programmers' back doors, as well, but these are just not there on the serious banking systems.

Question: on the system you refer to, can a human get access to the card validation data? including the three-digit security code? If they can, you are a naughty man.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif