CQR-----Delta--------Manson and price is an issue.

[PeterR]

So trying to talk swmbo in to heading to s Brittany for a couple of weeks this summer and want a better anchor for the islands and moribhan, but cannot afford a spade but was wondering if the Manson was worth the extra 200 pounds over the delta. So was wondering if people could rate the delta on a scale between the CQR and Manson. Say with the CQR on zero and the manson on10 where would the delta go?

Looking around the 16kg/35lb range and seen the delta for £150ish and the Manson for £350ish.

I have had both a 16kg Delta and Manson Supreme for the last 5 years. At the time the price differential was much less. The Delta was a about £180 and the Manson about £250 - strange the way prices have gone!

I have used a Delta happily on the east coast and never had a problem with it setting or holding in the thick east coast mud. However, I have had a lot of trouble with Deltas failing to set or breaking out in hard sand. When it has broken out it has failed to reset.

The Manson has always set rapidly and held in both mud and sand. On a trip round the UK it only failed to set twice. Once in very heavy kelp and once in an area of shale/pebbles.

It can be a problem to get the Manson to sit well on some bow rollers and it can get clogged with mud between the blade and the roller in heavy mud. For that reason I often stick with the Delta on the east coast and put the Manson on when venturing anywhere near sand. This video is by Manson but does reflect my experience when using it. In the same situation I have watched the Delta skidding across the surface without setting.

 

[vyv_cox]

CQR 0 ,Manson 10
Delta about 6-7.

The Delta sets very well, but does drag (slowly) in softer substrates. If you can go large it is a great value for money anchor.
I would rate the Kobra 2 as similar in performance to the Delta. (but the Kobra 2 is often cheaper than a Delta). In construction the Kobra is a slightly fragile anchor (the Kobra 1 is worse, but only available in small sizes) so I would tend to go (just) for the Delta as a primary anchor at this level, but a lot depends on local pricing.

IMHO Rocna, MS and Spade are significantly better, but are considerably more expensive, which may, or may not, be justified depending on your requirements.

This is very much in line with my thinking, although I'm not sure about 'fragile'. The Kobra has a long shank that may be difficult to stow on some boats.

For Atlantic coast sailing, with a reasonable amount of sand in the bottom I would use a Delta for a rather more economical choice. I used one for 20 years and never had a problem with it except, as noted by another poster, on very hard sand, when it failed to set. This was on a surf beach, not somewhere often chosen as an anchorage. It only ever dragged in Greece, on very soft mud.

My Rocna is rather better than the Delta it replaced, but certainly not twice as good. I think it is now safe to buy a Rocna, the one I tested for YM was almost to the original design shank specification and probably stronger than the very similar Delta one.

 

[[2574]]

Why not a Rocna?

If I were to re-anchor another boat I wouldn't hesitate on choosing the same again

Seconded.

 

[snowleopard]

and price is an issue.

Yes, the Delta comes in around 1/4 to 1/3 the price of Manson, Spade etc.

In tests it scores around 90% of the latest generation but I would suggest you should judge the reports on a different criterion. All the graphs will show some modern anchors giving huge individual holding results but it doesn't make sense to look at the highest figure but the lowest. What you want for a good night's sleep is an anchor that will always hold moderately well, not one that will hold really well sometimes.

As for the delta, I used a relatively light one (15kg on a 40 ft cat) on my Atlantic circuit in all sorts of conditions and bottoms. It dragged on 3 occasions:

In the Spanish rias when I dropped it among kelp and it came up with a ton of the stuff.

In English Harbour Antigua where there was a patch of rock a few inches below the sand and it couldn't bury.

In a small hurricane hole, also in Antigua, where the bottom was liquid mud and I had to use the Fortress kedge instead.

The Fortress BTW is brilliant in very soft mud but can be difficult to get a set at all in some bottoms so definitely a backup anchor, not a bower.

 

[vyv_cox]

In tests it scores around 90% of the latest generation but I would suggest you should judge the reports on a different criterion. All the graphs will show some modern anchors giving huge individual holding results but it doesn't make sense to look at the highest figure but the lowest. What you want for a good night's sleep is an anchor that will always hold moderately well, not one that will hold really well sometimes.

Good advice. In the talk I give on anchoring I use the graph that was printed in YM showing the results of their major test in conjunction with Sail and West Marine. It shows very nicely that no anchor held every time in the five tests, not even the hugely over-sized Fortress, although that one did come out best.

 

[jordanbasset]

As for use of the description 'fragile', one would seek a reliable justification of that notion. I haven't seen one so, until/unless one emerges, it is simply prejudice at work.

Agree my real world experience is that the KOBRA 2 has held us in many situations where more expensive anchors have dragged. In the 4 years we used it from the U.K. to Greece it only dragged once. I do make sure it is very well dug in and give it 2000 revs to ensure this is the case. When we sold the boat the anchor was as good as new, no sign of wear, so I am really confused as to where the 'fragile' comes from

 

[noelex]

When we sold the boat the anchor was as good as new, no sign of wear, so I am really confused as to where the 'fragile' comes from

The shank / fluke connection is not very strong and the long shallow shank in mild steel is vulnerable to bending.
"Wear" is more a function of the galvanising quality which looks as good as much more expensive anchors.

Despite its construction shortcomings it is unlikely most owners will bend one, and if they do its not expensive to replace.
It is a good anchor at a low price, which is a winning combination for many boat owners.

 

[oldbilbo]

The shank / fluke connection is not very strong and the long shallow shank in mild steel is vulnerable to bending.
Despite its construction shortcomings it is unlikely most owners will bend one

This place is an excellent source of opinion - some of it well-informed and based on broad practical experience, some of it based on engineers' empirical testing, and some of it based on airy-fairy notions closer to flannel than fact. What is not helpful is personal prejudice dressed up as fact.

 

[Neeves]

The shank / fluke connection is not very strong and the long shallow shank in mild steel is vulnerable to bending.
"Wear" is more a function of the galvanising quality which looks as good as much more expensive anchors.

Despite its construction shortcomings it is unlikely most owners will bend one, and if they do its not expensive to replace.
It is a good anchor at a low price, which is a winning combination for many boat owners.

+1


It is sad that the OP had to introduce what is a very sensible question with an apology, what's wrong with someone wanting to ask a question about anchor choice?

It is equally sad that people are motivated to mention Rocna in a defensive manner (why?) - if they are good, say they are good (based on sound knowledge) - why suggest time is a healer (that's for an individual to decide) - what the OP needs to know is - are they better value than a Supreme or Delta?

Jonathan

 

[Scotty_Tradewind]

. I think it is now safe to buy a Rocna, .

My thoughts too.....

 

[Tranona]

I have had both a 16kg Delta and Manson Supreme for the last 5 years. At the time the price differential was much less. The Delta was a about £180 and the Manson about £250 - strange the way prices have gone!

Not strange at all, having just been to New Zealand and "suffered" from only getting $1.9 for each of my £s compared with over $3 last time I was there.

 

[Babylon]

This place is an excellent source of opinion - some of it well-informed and based on broad practical experience, some of it based on engineers' empirical testing, and some of it based on airy-fairy notions closer to flannel than fact. What is not helpful is personal prejudice dressed up as fact.

Naturally.

But please give an example of anyone's "airy-fairy notions" or "personal prejudice" evident in this thread... regarding anchors rather than taxation.

 

[Neeves]

I have a Kobra, it has a thin, mild steel shank - which I'm guessing will be weak. I could test its bendiness but then I'd not have a spare lunch pick. I have seen a bent Kobra 2 shank, I'd guess a 15kg model, at Preston Marina.

If I had to disagree with Noelex it would be that I suspect a number of owners will bend them, primarily when they retrieve them. But they will be equally easy to bend straight.

It is very sad, for not much extra money they could have had an anchor that sets well, holds well and had a decent shank.

Jonathan

 

[stav]

Thanks for the replies and thoughts. I have placed an order for a Manson from a chandler mentioned above. Hopefully they can deliver for the quoted price and with a bit of luck before half term! And I am looking forward to some more relaxed lunches ashore and perhaps only getting up once or twice during the night at anchor. All I have to do now is make the bow roller hold it......

Ought to say decided ultimately not that much more money and decided the slot in the top might be useful when anchoring amongst the rocks and in the French estuaries/rivers with moored boats.

Thanks again

 

[Homer Simpson's Lovechild]

Anchor threads, doncha lovem!
It always baffles me when I hear yachties groaning about putting a 300 quid anchor on their 100k gin palace when they can get a Blogs anchor for half the price.
I cruised with a CQR and never had a good nights sleep at anchor. Yes it would set if you faffed about and kept trying untill it fell into a hole in the seabed. No , I never dragged onto the rocks. I reckon I'd have been as secure with the galley cooker lashed to the chain.
I bought a Rocna before all the fuss.
It's like a ringbolt. In clear waters I peer over the bow and can see that it has drilled into the seabed in a matter of feet.
If I bother to back down onto it the boat comes to a jarring halt every time within seconds , risking shock loading the deck fittings.
I sleep like a baby every time at anchor now and would actively seek an anchorage before a berth or bouy.
It' s the best bit of kit on the boat by a country mile and I'd never return to an old school anchor.
Chandlers are full of tins of paint that cost 50 quid and 300 quid poncy sailing boots. A hoist out costs more than the priciest new gen anchor. Just saw a snatch block for 600 quid .
Chrisakes spend a few hundred on a new gen anchor and transform your cruising experience. Forget the 300 quid Dubatwat's and get a pair of Muckboots from the local farm shop, they are far cosier and you'll be able to wade through the mud at that great wee anchorage you are welded to with the anchor you bought with the money.

 

[jag22]

Those Rocna's look great. What size do you think for a 22 ft boat? I reckon I might have to get one

 

[Babylon]

Anchor threads, doncha lovem!
It always baffles me when I hear yachties groaning about putting a 300 quid anchor on their 100k gin palace when they can get a Blogs anchor for half the price.
I cruised with a CQR and never had a good nights sleep at anchor. Yes it would set if you faffed about and kept trying untill it fell into a hole in the seabed. No , I never dragged onto the rocks. I reckon I'd have been as secure with the galley cooker lashed to the chain.
I bought a Rocna before all the fuss.
It's like a ringbolt. In clear waters I peer over the bow and can see that it has drilled into the seabed in a matter of feet.
If I bother to back down onto it the boat comes to a jarring halt every time within seconds , risking shock loading the deck fittings.
I sleep like a baby every time at anchor now and would actively seek an anchorage before a berth or bouy.
It' s the best bit of kit on the boat by a country mile and I'd never return to an old school anchor.
Chandlers are full of tins of paint that cost 50 quid and 300 quid poncy sailing boots. A hoist out costs more than the priciest new gen anchor. Just saw a snatch block for 600 quid .
Chrisakes spend a few hundred on a new gen anchor and transform your cruising experience. Forget the 300 quid Dubatwat's and get a pair of Muckboots from the local farm shop, they are far cosier and you'll be able to wade through the mud at that great wee anchorage you are welded to with the anchor you bought with the money.

I's grinnin' from ear to ear!!

 

[Tranona]

Anchor threads, doncha lovem!
It always baffles me when I hear yachties groaning about putting a 300 quid anchor on their 100k gin palace when they can get a Blogs anchor for half the price.
I cruised with a CQR and never had a good nights sleep at anchor. Yes it would set if you faffed about and kept trying untill it fell into a hole in the seabed. No , I never dragged onto the rocks. I reckon I'd have been as secure with the galley cooker lashed to the chain.
I bought a Rocna before all the fuss.
It's like a ringbolt. In clear waters I peer over the bow and can see that it has drilled into the seabed in a matter of feet.
If I bother to back down onto it the boat comes to a jarring halt every time within seconds , risking shock loading the deck fittings.
I sleep like a baby every time at anchor now and would actively seek an anchorage before a berth or bouy.
It' s the best bit of kit on the boat by a country mile and I'd never return to an old school anchor.
Chandlers are full of tins of paint that cost 50 quid and 300 quid poncy sailing boots. A hoist out costs more than the priciest new gen anchor. Just saw a snatch block for 600 quid .
Chrisakes spend a few hundred on a new gen anchor and transform your cruising experience. Forget the 300 quid Dubatwat's and get a pair of Muckboots from the local farm shop, they are far cosier and you'll be able to wade through the mud at that great wee anchorage you are welded to with the anchor you bought with the money.

If price was a determinant of quality, effectiveness suitability etc of an anchor then the CQR would win hands down as it is the most expensive anchor on the market!

You do not have to pay that amount of money (or even ROCNA money) to buy an effective anchor.

 

[Sybarite]

If price was a determinant of quality, effectiveness suitability etc of an anchor then the CQR would win hands down as it is the most expensive anchor on the market!

You do not have to pay that amount of money (or even ROCNA money) to buy an effective anchor.

Voile magazine have just brought out their annual special edition (240 pages) on boating equipment.

4 pages are given over to anchors. Here are some of the main points they make:

In the ‘80’s a minor revolution with the Delta.
Rigid shank is more efficient than CQR for digging in quickly.
Next came the evolution (around yr 2000) based on the distribution of weight in the anchor, with the new generation anchors concentrating weight in the tip.
Notably the Brake and Spade anchors with lead in tips.
Digging in first time virtually assured.
Fabrication is more complicated and therefore more expensive.
Plough type anchors do not generally detach unexpectedly like flat blades.
They may plough the bottom under extreme conditions but normally without “unhooking”.
The best anchors have been subject to long periods of development, up to 10 years, and this is reflected in the cost.
New generation anchors: holding is less dependent on weight than on geometry and the surface area of the plough.
As the angle of incidence anchor:bottom is critical, so then is the length of chain deployed.
This explains why aluminium anchors can often hold as well as steel ones in extreme conditions, but are often damaged in the process. (However, on Fortress anchors for example blades can be replaced.
Should flat anchors be binned? Not necessarily as they may well hold better in mud.

The anchors included :

Plough
Plastimo Kobra 2 16kg €145 China
MPI Brake 12kg €289 France
Wasi Bügel 14kg €300 Germany
STF Seablade 13kg €357 Tunisia
Rocna/VDM Rocna 15kg €369 New Zealand (?)
FOB Rock 16kg €370 France
STF Spade 15kg €520 Tunisia
Lewmar DTX 16kg €1049 England
Ultra Marine Ultra 16kg €1088 Europe

Flat
Plastimo Britany 14kg €120 China
FOB THP 16kg €171 France

Lightweight
Plastimo/Guardian Guardian 5.5kg €289 USA
Plastimo/Fortress Fortress 4.7kg €327 USA
STF Spade alu 5.5kg €600 Tunisia

Comments on anchors :

Kobra 2
Good qualityrice ratio. Holds consistently to around 1 tonne.

Brake
One of the originals which has reduced its price due to competition.

Bügel
Good anchor often copied because it’s not patented and simple to make.

Seablade
Brought out by makers of Spade as a competitor to Rocna but not as good. Holding around 1 tonne.

Rocna (commended)
Its reputation confirmed by tests. Synthesis of a Delta: shaft; Bügel:hoop; Spade: plough. Similar
performance to the Rock.

Fob Rock (commended)
One of rare anchors made in France it was designed for good performance at a reasonable price:
holding results at around 2 tonnes classed it among the best and considerably cheaper than a Spade.

Spade (favourite)
Star of test for some years, it has best holding in sand: holding to 2655kg in last tests. The lead in the
point represents 50% of the anchor’s weight.

Lewmar DTX
A tarted up Delta in SS. No difference in performance. Twice the price of a (gavanised) Spade.

Ultra
Follows fashion for SS anchors. Good holding power.


I’ll not comment on the lightweight anchors except to say that they consider them good options for racing boats. Good performance but more fragile.


(Notable absentees : CQR, Bruce, Manson, Mantus...)

 

[vyv_cox]

Very good summary, not much to argue with there. I have had some correspondence about the new Delta DTX. Its shank is made from annealed 316 SS and is therefore even softer than a mild steel, although the same dimensions as the manganese steel galvanised one. Bending one of these is a distinct possibility.