CQR blues

OldBawley

Active member
Joined
9 Aug 2010
Messages
985
Location
Cruising Med
Visit site
Forecast N-NO 7 to 8, Thunderstorm.
In our case that means hiding. We are in a sheltered area, many bays, so I choose one only open to the South. It has a little shop on the beach and free taverna Wlan.
Our main anchor is a big genuine CQR, we do not trust it, would like to buy a Spade or a Bugel but could not find the right one in Turkey or Greece. I like to see and touch something before I buy it, difficult in these parts of the Med.
In Turkey I ordered a Bugel, six months and some frightening dragging disasters later, the ordered spike was still somewhere in Ankara so I understood that the extremely booming Turkish yacht market had no interest in selling a low cost anchor. Turks do not want to be seen in an old or second hand yacht, only glossy new is good and all those ( French ) new toys have anchors when launched. I did see quite a bit of locally copied anchors, most of them not worth the money for the iron. Wrong angles, upside down welded flukes, ( sharp edge on false side of the fluke ) totally wrong proportions etc.
So, still having to cope with the CQR, one adapts. If possible I lay two anchors. Hate it, but sometimes very useful. If for instance some ***** picks up one, the other hook is still down.
So off in the dingy and rowing the second anchor out. In this case I used a sort of fisherman. Have no idea what the make is but extremely good for the hard Med bottom. One minus, the upper fluke sticks out of the seabed and in case of thunderstorm with 360° turning winds fouls the chain of the main anchor.
My choice of the bay was not good. Instead of N No we had puffs of every direction, mainly south, thanks to the high hills surrounding the bay. In the night, we could hear the chain grinding, so I new, we had a chain knot. No problem, untangled it hundreds of times.
And then, in the morning, leaving the warm bed and stepping into my pants, IT happened. Again. My back cracked. There I stood, one leg in the air and could not move any more.
It happens a few times every year, the result of 25 years hard physical labour. In fact, the years after, sitting behind a desk ware worse. It is not a big thing, goes away after a few days but at the moment it hurts like hell. Shuffling through the boat like a question mark, even looking up makes me moan.
By now, the wind started picking up and we ware on a lee shore with tangled anchors. I crawled out of the cabin after putting on the rest of my clothes in a way a three year old does. Moving myself into the dingy was even more painful and difficult after which I untangled main anchor chain and second anchor. This time it was a Houdini nr 3 knot. Rigid dingy with a transom chain roller to pick up the kedge anchor and a lot of practice. Otherwise forget it. Id did it! Had to shout my pain out, but I did it. It is simple, if I don´t do it, nobody will. Anchored 150 meter further to have some room to the shore.
And then, an other particularity of the CQR demonstrated itself. A modern good sized anchor digs in within one yard. The CQR takes looots of yards and is therefore extremely good in picking up deserted moorings which litter the Saronic sea bottom since the Argonauts started yachting. We have a manual SL anchor winch. Real stuff, no plastic, but hardened steal gears. Modified it to take a 8 mm chain gipsy which make it slower but very powerful. Long handle so I can pump it standing up. That is normally, this time I was lifting that piece of ***** from the bottom in double folded position. Again I did it, freeing the half oil drum full of scrap and concrete. Finally managed to find a good spot for the three days of Force 7 and thunderstorms.
Back inside, the wife had lit up the wood stove and helped me changing into dry clothes.
The wind is howling, we are good, can´t even crawl any more. Who wanted to be a cruiser?
 

Oliveoyl

New member
Joined
15 Aug 2006
Messages
2,041
Location
Belgistan
www.yotblog.com
If your back gives out regularly, do you have appropriate meds? Myolastan, dyclofenac/codeine? Won't cure, but may help to remain active those few extra hours
 

OldBawley

Active member
Joined
9 Aug 2010
Messages
985
Location
Cruising Med
Visit site
Since cruising and therefore being much more physically active, the back is better. Two to three times a year I have a “ hexenschuss” as the Germans say. Flemish “Oeiei”, Greek : ΟϬΎναλγία.
As I understand it, the pain is in fact muscular spasm. This I inherited from mothers side of the family. So a few years back my 80 year old mother send me some of her pills. Painkillers and muscle relaxant. ( Lots of ouzo relaxes my muscles also but then walking gets difficult )
“Back home” I still pay for a health insurance ( obligatory ) but that is a bit of a scam.
If I want medical care or medicine, I have to be treated in the cold land by my very one house doctor.
Feeling no desire to fly back and making appointments in Freezistan I try to keep been sick to a minimum, pay whatever Mediterranean doctor cash and forget about it. Do not like taking pills anyway.

It is a good tip to keep one or two pills handy for the event of “Having to act, willing or not “
The old tub is all I have and in case of danger nobody is going to swim over and help.

An electric anchor winch, on my wish list for 25 years. I am getting old, the tub is even older. Some estimate our 65 year old wooden small boat at 5000 €. Others who know our sailing home think highly of it. The investment in a electric winch is not worth it.
The winch would increase security a lot, last winter on two occasions in a fierce thunderstorm I sat by the helm steering into wind, hail and horizontal rain. No way to leave the helm and go forward to pump up 50 meters of chain. In moderate conditions the auto-helm combined with minimum revs forward work fine, not so in a full thunderstorm.
Maybe we have five more years of sailing, maybe not, I will let a young new owner organize an electric winch.
 
Last edited:

Robin

Well-known member
Joined
30 May 2001
Messages
18,069
Location
high and dry on north island
Visit site
When we had a SL manual windlass on a W33 it was so slow it never got used, then because it wasn't used it seized up! We finally saw the light and did a full anchor system upgrade, electric windlass (Lofrans Cayman 1200 I think), 10mm chain (up from 8mm) and a genuine 45lb CQR. The electric windlass meant that if I wasn't 110% happy with the anchor set, or our position relative to other boats or whatever, then it was a simple matter to pull it all up and do it again. That alone has to be a huge factor in anchoring properly and with confidence, because if it is dreadful hard work you will find 101 reasons to leave it and just hope.
 

idpnd

Member
Joined
13 Jun 2009
Messages
729
Location
Caribbean
www.svlibertalia.com
Used to hate sliding around anchorages on my 45 kg non-genuine CQR - too long for hawsepipe as well - then got this "HKG Klipp" anchor. Looks just like what they use on the big ships, in fact my master mariner friend said "what on earth is a buegel? merchant ships use folding stockless anchors". EUR 200 for 40 kg at German boaty supplier svb.de and works a treat, tested up to 8 bf in sand :)
 
Last edited:

rickf

New member
Joined
27 Aug 2008
Messages
57
Location
Gibraltar - heading east
Visit site
CQR

sorry aboutyour back, have no words of wisdom for that. as for anchors,
I love the CQR. I now have a spade, and while it is good, Probably as
good, just getting used to it. Now, you have to develop a little technique.
don't motor back when dropping the hook. let the wind push you. if no wind,
just goose it a little in reverse to get a little momentum, then go to neutral.
next, use 5 to 1 scope. after the anchor has set for 15 minutes or so,
give it easy reverse. once the chain is stretched, slowly increase until its
dug in. once in, it will hold. in the six years I had this anchor, I only
dragged once, and then it was only about 10 yards in 3-4 ft swells and
30 knots.
Rickf
 

OldBawley

Active member
Joined
9 Aug 2010
Messages
985
Location
Cruising Med
Visit site
Thanks rickf, I new a guy who was designing engineer for anchoring systems. Those hold docking islands for supertankers. He explained to me how to set an anchor. With those big mushroom anchors they wait one week before putting a load on it. Has to do with a thin water film between anchor and surrounding ground, acting as a lubricant.
Have practised his advice a lot. We are liveaboards, now 13 year in the Mediterranean, 365 days a year on the hook. No marina´s, if possible no town quay but even then the anchor is down.

The CQR is good for North Sea anchorages, the med is quite different. Very often to hard for the blunt point of the CQR to dig in properly. If possible, I dive down to have a look how the anchor has set, and although we have 48 HP to pull the anchor in, a lot of the time it is no good.

In summer, no problems, in spring of fall, that is different. In winter, the big **** comes. The yachts wintering on there own anchor, changing spot every few days are rare. In fact, I down`t now any except us. We have managed so far without accidents, but I have spend many hours on anchor watch, especially during thunderstorms. A modern spike like the Spade holds and digs in a lot better than the old CQR, wood be an huge comfort. Out here, no way to buy such a thing, maybe now being in Greece I could have one by delivery. In Turkey, ordering in Europe and having it send over was to much of a lottery, heard to much horror story’s.

Hard work indeed Robin. Manual hauling 50 meter of chain and a heavy anchor up is no good, it should be forbidden. Doing it 6 times in a row is madness, still I have done it. After four times trying to set the hook and pumping it up again, my brain switches of, so my wife has to intervene after six times and shout” for ***+ sake, stop and try somewhere else. You idiot. “

The reason for all this work is that the surrounding electric winch push the button skippers put down 50 to 70 meters of chain. Even in 4 meters of water and no wind, 50 meter minimum.
???????? Why????? Habit ?????
My back is better today. Lifted anchor, and for once started the diesel and motored to the other side of the bay. After three days of dark sky loading some diesel-amps is justified.
 

Robin

Well-known member
Joined
30 May 2001
Messages
18,069
Location
high and dry on north island
Visit site
The reason for all this work is that the surrounding electric winch push the button skippers put down 50 to 70 meters of chain. Even in 4 meters of water and no wind, 50 meter minimum.
???????? Why????? Habit ?????

There is a scientific/mathematical reason that explains why there is a much greater load generated in shallow waters. It is why on some shallow water or drying moorings riser chains have parted with the snatch loads created by waves. I'm aware of the result but not competent to show the maths!

So 50-70m of chain in 4m of water is over the top, but then again if staying any length of time 4m plus 1m water to bow = 5m, times say 6-7 times that (allows for shallow water) gives 30-35m which is getting up there. As has often been said, chain does no good in the locker!

Ever noticed how if you upgrade the gear (windlass in this case) to do the job painlessly, that it is never then needed so often? Many years ago after beating all the way upwind to get to the Scillies, when we returned the wind shifted 180 degrees so we had to beat all the way back again. Friends leaving a week after us had the spinnaker up, both ways.:mad: After that I said next boat will have either a fin keel or a big engine, preferably both. When we bought that next boat, A Liz 30 fin keeler (designed for heavy weather upwind half ton cup conditions expected that year), we never went anywhere upwind and nearly wore out the spinnaker. Didn't have the big engine mind.
 

binch

New member
Joined
3 Jul 2008
Messages
585
Location
gradually diminishing with age. Now Europe
Visit site
Holding

Over almost 100,000 miles of cruising, I have always used CQR.
Of course we have dragged now and then, usually then.
Generally boats/ships do not drag from a steady pull. It is the way a yacht in particular sheers about that breaks out the anchor. It has to do with the peripatetic point of pivot or PPP.
The PPP moves forward or aft as the boat moves ahead or astern through the water. This can cause her to sheer up until she is actually to windward of the anchor and in that position she is pulling the anchor sideways. Much of this and she breaks the anchor out.
I once anchored in the River Danube on a sandy bottom. The current was seven knots measured on our log. Yet the boat lay absolutely peaceful.
The equivalent windspeed to exert that amount of diect pull on an anchor cable would have been force 12. She would not have held then, because she would not have lain still.
On one boat I had a small "anchor mizzen" that I set right aft in strong winds. With that set, we did not sheer about and did not drag.
The CQR, designed for anchoring Imperial Flying Boats pre WW2 is only fully effective when the plough has dug right in, and the shank can hinge about to take a varying pull.
You don't judge an anchor by a direct pull. You judge it by its wriggle resistance.
But it must be a genuine CQR. Ersatz won't do. And good heavy cable.
One other way of stopping a boat from sheering about is to drop anchor number one at say 50 metres of cable, fall back on it and when down wind move ahead a boat's length and let go anchor number two with 20 metres.
It used to work in Nelson's days. It still does.
 

Caladh

Well-known member
Joined
25 Oct 2009
Messages
1,441
Location
Out there again and no longer dreaming
Visit site
My back is in a similar state of decrepitude, thats why I invested in a Lofrans Tigres ELECTRIC winch.

My back says well done and I don't mind reanchoring if my CQR doese not bite first time.

Press the button and up she comes!

+1 - Moi aussi. My back has been the best it's been for about 25 years having also invested in a Lofrans Tigres.
 

Chris_Robb

Well-known member
Joined
15 Jun 2001
Messages
8,060
Location
Haslemere/ Leros
Visit site
One other way of stopping a boat from sheering about is to drop anchor number one at say 50 metres of cable, fall back on it and when down wind move ahead a boat's length and let go anchor number two with 20 metres.
It used to work in Nelson's days. It still does.

Thanks for that one. I will give it a go.

I had heard another way to stop sheering this but have not tried:

Put out your required chain, the secure on a chain hook, then drop a substantial amount of chain in a loop to act as a drag on the seabed.

Has anyone ever tried this? I would imagine that on a smooth seabed free of snags like rocks it would work well, but could be a little noisy up in the forepeak.
 

OldBawley

Active member
Joined
9 Aug 2010
Messages
985
Location
Cruising Med
Visit site
Afraid I was not clear enough with my first post. What I really wanted to express is the fact that living – cruising is a bit different from every day life. In fact it is a lot different. Having a pain in the back in “ Normal “ circumstances means having the wife calling to say you are sick, waiting for a doctor to have a look at you and then doing nothing for two weeks.
Hanging on to your anchor in bad weather and going through your back means one can expect no help, you are on your one. If you do not act, nobody will.
Cruising is not only sugar and honey.
 

charles_reed

Active member
Joined
29 Jun 2001
Messages
10,413
Location
Home Shropshire 6/12; boat Greece 6/12
Visit site
Thanks for that one. I will give it a go.

I had heard another way to stop sheering this but have not tried:

Put out your required chain, the secure on a chain hook, then drop a substantial amount of chain in a loop to act as a drag on the seabed.

Has anyone ever tried this? I would imagine that on a smooth seabed free of snags like rocks it would work well, but could be a little noisy up in the forepeak.
I've used this system, in the Med, for the last 3 years and haven't yet had a drag.

CQR, dug in after about 60' on 5:1 scope, then about 50% of the depth of octoplait on the chain-hook and a bight of x2 the Octoplait of chain.

the chain always stays below the surface, the boat stops sheering around and everything is comfortable until the wind drops and you go beam-on to the incoming swell.

I do sometimes have to re-anchor if the anchor doesn't dig in after the 2nd pull, usually because of weed, though I have had a towel and a coil of 1" rope.

PS no noise, except the creak of the octoplait and no need to sweep the seabed, in my boat.
 
Last edited:

Chris_Robb

Well-known member
Joined
15 Jun 2001
Messages
8,060
Location
Haslemere/ Leros
Visit site
I've used this system, in the Med, for the last 3 years and haven't yet had a drag.

CQR, dug in after about 60' on 5:1 scope, then about 50% of the depth of octoplait on the chain-hook and a bight of x2 the Octoplait of chain.

the chain always stays below the surface, the boat stops sheering around and everything is comfortable until the wind drops and you go beam-on to the incoming swell.

I do sometimes have to re-anchor if the anchor doesn't dig in after the 2nd pull, usually because of weed, though I have had a towel and a coil of 1" rope.

PS no noise, except the creak of the octoplait and no need to sweep the seabed, in my boat.

Hi Charles, will give it a go next year. Still got a CQR.....???:eek:
 

tri39

New member
Joined
25 Nov 2008
Messages
772
Location
Sussex
www.sailblogs.com
Charles idea of using the additional chain loop as effectively a kellet is neat and simple.
It often occurs to me to attach a small additional anchor to the chain and lower that to the seabed. However on a multi with only 90ft of chain (plus warp) I usually use the bridle to prevent shearing but of course that does not deepen the catenary curve.
I have changed from a CQR to a Rocna but still occasionally drag through weed.
When it happens we deploy the Fortress as well.
 

DaiB

Member
Joined
1 Oct 2001
Messages
282
Visit site
Shearing

as per earlier posters,
I use a ten metre length of 14mm 3 strand nylon on a chain hook and slacken off the chain to form a bight about 5m longer than the nylon. For our boat it really helps to cut down the sheering, cuts out chain noise and smooths out the load on the anchor. i have a piece of plastic tube for where the nylon goes over the bow roller. :)
 
Top