Courtesy Flags when I visit UK from Ireland ?

I seem to remember some of our Iberian cousins earning a bob or two from incorrect flag hoists. Olão springs to mind.
I was recently in Brittany and curried favour with their flag as a stb. hoist. No prob with the CRS manning the escort ribs. But I am French registered, so not a target........
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Aidan - I bet you now wished you'd never asked! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Maybe you should go to France instead...it'd be much simpler...and don't even think about that Breton flag /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
It isn't just amateurs

I've seen two large cruise liners recently flying the Union Flag as a courtesy ensign.

Not something I get exercised about normally but I found it curiously annoying.

The other thought, of course, is if they can't get a simple thing like that right how good is the rest of their seamanship?
 
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I've seen two large cruise liners recently flying the Union Flag as a courtesy ensign.



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I think that particular confusion is understandable, since many nations do not have a separate maritime ensign.

But it does make me sad to see the long held conventions and courtesies of seafarers derided. No-one is going to drown for want of a courtesy flag, but many of the traditional practices and disciplines are there for very good reasons. It is far better to make a habit of good practice than to have to learn the hard way when the occasion arises (as it will) that sloppy practice isn't good enough.

At sea, "anything goes" is NOT OK. It's a pity so many people are so ready to chuck the wisdom of generations of seamen out of the window. It is the seamanship of the deriders and the scoffers that I worry about.
 
Wow ! Many thanks to all who replied. It's amazing to think that i've been to NI, Isle of Man and Wales without having proper flags on board - and i've always had the impression that it's more complicated than it really is. I'd like to show courtesy, and I'm more concerned about not getting it so wrong so that it offends people than being 'correct'. However, it seems clear that the correct courtesy flag for visiting Irish boats to fly is the Red Ensign ("Red Duster"). The reference to the RYA C4 brochure seems the most authoritative source quoted (I've seen it mentioned elsewhere too), pity they dont put it online.
So, I will purchase a Red Ensign as the correct flag for courtesy use. I will probably get a Scottish and Welsh Flag since it seems to be where East coast of Ireland boats cruise most often, and I guess if I do break the rules and fly these as courtesy flags as a nod to the 'rabid Celtic extremists' (!) I suppose it should probably be either on their own, or under the Red ensign.

Thank's again. It's always interesting to see a concensus emerging, so here's what it seems to me from what ye said...

It seems like the Red Duster gets the most votes as the "correct" ensign for me to fly when visiting UK ports.
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In reality, you can't go wrong flying a red ensign on stbd, this is the correct flag

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if you are wearing an Irish ensign and fly a uk red ensign on stbd, that will be plenty

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It's normally the maritime flag I believe (i.e. the Red Ensign).

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The correct answer is of course the Red Ensign.

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Red Ensign from your starboard spreader.... ...Flying the union flag is dodgy unless you have the Queen aboard. Flying the individual country flags - Scotland, Wales - may endear you to the locals but isn't 'legal'.

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...entails flying the maritime flag of the host nation - and to be awkward our maritime flag is the red ensign, not the Union flag.

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The correct flag to wear as a courtesy ensign anywhere in the United Kingdom is the red ensign, flown from the starboard spreader

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if I was a visiting boat I would want to follow the correct practice and that is to fly my national ensign at the stern and, after clearing-in, fly the red ensign at the starboard spreader.

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The Nation you are visiting is the UK, so fly their National flag, be it the Red Duster or Union, one of the two. I don't think anyone minds which.

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OP, the red duster is the correct one to fly.

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flying the union flag at sea is a no-no....The correct sea flag is the red ensign which is also the correct courtesy flag.

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Quoting from Hewitt (1989). Flags and visual signals. C4/87 Royal Yachting Association. Page 17: "It is customary, but not obligatory, when lying in a foreign port, to fly the maritime Ensign of the country being visited, as a mark of courtesy. ... ... The British maritime Ensign for use as a courtesy ensign is the Red Ensign and not the Union Flag."

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Some suggest the Union flag will "do", or is even preferrable - though I think the combined wisdom above seems to suggest the Red Ensign.

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It's normally the maritime flag I believe (i.e. the Red Ensign) though I have seen quite a few Union Flags flown as a courtesy flag.

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the union flag is sold abroad so it's quite common to see foreigners innocently flying it here instead of a red duster

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As to the correct flag, I'm not so sure it is the Red Ensign, I think the Union Flag is more likely to be correct

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Flying the union flag is dodgy unless you have the Queen aboard.

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Several people suggest that the local "National" flag will endear to the locals, although it seems clear it is not the "correct" one. It was suggested that flying the Red Ensign, with the National flag underneath is a good compromise. note: for the purists: although it seems to be common, the reference at suggests that flying the scottish, welsh, english national flags at sea is just plain wrong

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The English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Northern Irish flags are often flown as well but should not be flown senior to the Red Ensign. It's a nice touch appreciated by many people here in the UK, especially those who don't want to be in it

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in Wales and Scotland the national flags always go down well

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If you want to show an extra modicum of courtesy to the locals, than you can hoist the relevant local flag below the red ensign.

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I would ... fly the red ensign at the starboard spreader...
If I then added the local flag below the red ensign I'd feel I was keeping everyone happy.

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I think I can safely rule out the Scottish or English Ensigns.
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The Scottish and English ensigns are the equivalent of blue neon neon lights under your car or a flight of plaster ducks on the living room wall and should be avoided at all costs.

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Several people make the point that there's no need to get worked up over it, but some also point out the importance of tradition (and courtesy), and some point out that it appears to be a legal requirement in some countries (but not, or at least not enforced in the UK).
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right or wrong, none of us south of Hadrian's Wall take it that seriously, even the Cornish

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I don't think most people are really bothered if you fly a courtesy flag or not

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the courtesy flag thing is becoming more traditional than mandatory

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I think it is very sad that even basic courtesy, is derided, these days, by (very) amateur mariners

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I know it's called a 'courtesy' flag but in many countries it is a requirement not an option

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As long as the visitor flew his national flag of identity I'm sure no-one in authority here could care less what else was flown.

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In some countries they take the whole thing very seriously and hand out fines for breaking the rules - France has already been mentioned, so they clearly believe it is law, and enforceable

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Surely the fact that it is called a "courtesy" flag is all you need to know? Fly it as a courtesy. Fail to fly it - or fly an incorrect one, and it is clearly a publically displayed discourtesy.

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I don't suppose the authorities here will give a damn about your courtesy flag though, just come and enjoy yourselves.

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I've seen two large cruise liners recently flying the Union Flag as a courtesy ensign...Not something I get exercised about normally but I found it curiously annoying

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it does make me sad to see the long held conventions and courtesies of seafarers derided. No-one is going to drown for want of a courtesy flag, but many of the traditional practices and disciplines are there for very good reasons

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The location for flying the flags is as I expected
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your burgee and ensign at the stern show where you're coming from, the courtesy flag at the starb'd spreader show where you've arrived.

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The location for flying the flags is as I expected
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your burgee and ensign at the stern show where you're coming from, the courtesy flag at the starb'd spreader show where you've arrived.

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Yup. And whatever you do about courtesy flags, you DO have to wear your national ensign when entering a foreign port. That really is a legal requirement. Most boats over here also wear their ensigns in home waters, but that is not strictly necessary. Such is the childish furore about the colour of the ensign (mostly from people who have no idea why certain clubs have been granted the privilege of granting warrants to wear ensigns other than the plain red duster) that I sometimes wish they wouldn't, but there it is.

Have a great time! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Just don't bother. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

We really have better things to do than study the spreaders of foreign boats. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The idea of lack of a courtesy flag causing an English bloke offence is laughable. How over sensitive do you think we are?

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I hope we make you as welcome here as Dublin made me recently. Fantastic.

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the union flag is sold abroad so it's quite common to see foreigners innocently flying it here instead of a red duster. Fortunately our enforcement agencies don't consider that important enough for action.

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Enforcement agencies!!!

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Can you tell me which British "enforcement agency" would be able to try for a conviction for flying the Union Flag as a courtesy flag and what offence they would be able to prosecute under?

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But you try flying a Normandy or Breton flag instead of the French national colours as a friendly gesture - and you'll soon be boarded by the Maritime Police. Been there, papers demanded, and lucky to get away without a fine!

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Fine? For exactly what offence? How much would the fine have been?

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It's a laugh a day on YBW recently!
 
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The idea of lack of a courtesy flag causing an English bloke offence is laughable. How over sensitive do you think we are?


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Quite correct. In this country, at least, the courtesy flag is just that - a mark of common courtesy. Its absence simply signals that the non wearer is someone who can't be bothered to observe the common courtesies that are more or less universally observed by the international community of seamen across the world. The issue is not how the hosts feel about the guest but the attitudes the guest chooses to display.
 
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Can you tell me which British "enforcement agency" would be able to try for a conviction for flying the Union Flag as a courtesy flag and what offence they would be able to prosecute under?

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The following is taken from the FOTW site:

"The question of courtesy flags came up in 1950 when the Metropolitan Police, who had instructions that they were to seek the removal of the Union Jack from any British registered ship in the London Docks, asked whether the instruction applied to foreign registered ships flying the Union Jack as a courtesy flag. The Admiralty looked into it and decided that the matter was so vague and so complicated, there being different attitudes to the practice in those countries that had distinctive merchant ensigns, that the question was best ignored."
 
Yes

To be legal use the red ensign.

But in England at least no-one is likely to get too excited one way or the other.

BTB

A few years ago I was in Malahide marina for a few days and was severly snarled at by a "gentleman" on a native yacht because my Irish Tricolour courtesy flag had dropped about 6 inches below the starboard cross tree.

Seems pedantry knows no borders.

Enjoy your cruise.
 
Oh well, so much for my logic then...Red Ensign it is.

Just a couple of points,

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"The Scottish and English ensigns are the equivalent of blue neon neon lights under your car or a flight of plaster ducks on the living room wall and should be avoided at all costs."


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I don't know where you ever got the idea that there is such a thing as an "English" ot "Scottish" Ensign, please put such ideas out of your head. They do not exist! There is no such thing! You can't just go inventing "ensigns". Heavens, there'll be a cornish ensign next! (What would that be? Perhaps a small cold pasty with a £10 pricetag on a soggy grey field labelled "harbour full")

And on a point of order, of course no vessel should fly the Union "Jack" unless it is a RN vessel in commission.

Restless, the confusion caused by calling the Union flag by an improper name can cause all sorts of confusion, as your quote indicates. I'd love to have seen the Met's finest trying to remove a Union Jack. They wouldn't have known if they'd been punched, bored or countersunk! Man, the stokers would have loved that. Sounds like a good basis for Tugg cartoon!
 
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And on a point of order, of course no vessel should fly the Union "Jack" unless it is a RN vessel in commission.


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Last week HMS Daring was flying both a Union Jack and a Union Flag in Portsmouth. Jack at the Jackstaff, and Union Flag from the mast (if you can call it that)

Today there are 4 Indian Navy Warships in the dockyard, all flying Union Flags as Courtesy Flags.

And yesterday there was a merchant ship at Flathouse Quay flying a Union Flag. It has been replaced by a Red Ensign when I passed by today.

As to whether it is the Union Jack or Union Flag. Is the flag called a Jack, because is is small, and the Jackstaff takes its name from the flag, or is called a Jack because it is flown from the Jackstaff ?

John
 
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I don't know where you ever got the idea that there is such a thing as an "English" ot "Scottish" Ensign, please put such ideas out of your head. They do not exist! There is no such thing!

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There may not be an English ensign, but there most certainly is a Scottish one, used by both the Scottish navy and the Scottish merchant fleet (it's sometimes known as the Scottish merchant flag) before the Act or Union.
 
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I've tried to do some research but am a little confused...
Coming from Dublin, which of the following should I fly when visiting each of Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales & England ?

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If you want to be boringly correct it should probably be a red ensign, but - let's face it - nobody really cares in the slightest what flag a small boat sailed by amateurs for fun flies (or that I should theoretically have written "wears" there), legally anyway.

It's probably best, therefore, to fly whatever your hosts would prefer. In general you will find that an explicitly Scottish flag goes down best in Scotland.

A saltire is probably the easiest, since a code flag M will do fine. A Scottish merchant flag will get the warmest response but is a little harder to find. A lion rampant would be very acceptable too.
 
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In this country, at least, the courtesy flag is just that - a mark of common courtesy. Its absence simply signals that the non wearer is someone who can't be bothered to observe the common courtesies that are more or less universally observed by the international community of seamen across the world. The issue is not how the hosts feel about the guest but the attitudes the guest chooses to display.

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I'd say it misrable ****s like you, who go around looking for reasons to be offended that lack common courtesy. Unless I've totally misunderstood your post.

I'm proud of Britain and always make an effort to smile and nod at Foreign boats with or without the right flags.
 
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I don't know where you ever got the idea that there is such a thing as an "English" ot "Scottish" Ensign, please put such ideas out of your head. They do not exist! There is no such thing!

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There may not be an English ensign, but there most certainly is a Scottish one, used by both the Scottish navy and the Scottish merchant fleet (it's sometimes known as the Scottish merchant flag) before the Act or Union.

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It seems that there is (or was) a "Scottish" Red Ensign, used by the Scottish navy until 1707... "The practice of maritime vessels adopting the Saltire, for use as a jack or courtesy flag, may lead to possible confusion in that the Saltire closely resembles the maritime signal flag M, "MIKE", which is used to indicate "My vessel is stopped and making no way through the water". However, so as to avoid confusion and a possible fine,[17] owners of vessels wishing to display an alternative flag to that of the Saltire have resorted to unofficial use of either the Royal Standard of Scotland or the historic Scottish Red Ensign. Last used by the pre-1707 Royal Scots Navy and merchant marine fleets,[18] the Scottish Red Ensign now appears in the catalogues of several flag manufacturers,[19] due to its increased popularity among private citizens for use on water."
Scottish Red Ensign

t seems there are three no less than three different "English" ensigns...
English Red Ensign
English White Ensign
English Blue Ensign

I'm fairly satisfied at this stage though that none of these enter into the Courtesy flag equation - I'll stick with the Red duster. [Edit]: Just noticed Orbister's post "In general you will find that an explicitly Scottish flag goes down best in Scotland. A saltire is probably the easiest, since a code flag M will do fine. A Scottish merchant flag will get the warmest response but is a little harder to find. A lion rampant would be very acceptable too." .... maybe the Scottish Red Ensign (ie. Scottish 'Merchant Flag') is the one to get hold of so.

The one that I didn't think about but would like to know is the Isle of Mann, which appears to have it's own "civil ensign" which is a combination of the Red Ensign and the Three Legs of Mann symbol. This seems to be what Isle of Mann registered boats would fly when abroad. I suspect it wont really matter in practice which one I would fly, but I suppose if I am going to buy one, the Isle of Mann Civil ensign is the correct courtesy flag (rather than more often seen national flag)?
Civil ensign of the Isle of Man
Civil Ensigns

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The one that I didn't think about but would like to know is the Isle of Mann, which appears to have it's own "civil ensign" which is a combination of the Red Ensign and the Three Legs of Mann symbol.

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I have a standard "three legs of mann" flag - bought in Peel for a quid and originally intended for sandcastles - which I use when I go there. It seems to be quite acceptable there. As with Scotland, I think what goes down well is an acknowledgement that you are "abroad", and it doesn't particularly matter which acknowledgement you give.

Tip to English yachts visiting Scotland: a Scottish flag (any of 'em) at the cross trees will be much appreciated.
 
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