Courtesy Flags when I visit UK from Ireland ?

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aidancoughlan

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I've tried to do some research but am a little confused...
Coming from Dublin, which of the following should I fly when visiting each of Northern Ireland, Scotland, Wales & England ?

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As far as I can gather, many people visiting the UK fly the local national flag, but the "correct" flag to fly is either the Red Ensign or the Union flag (regardless of where specifically), depending on who you listen to.

Can anyone clear it up or point me to a definitive source?
 
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As far as I can gather, many people visiting the UK fly the local national flag, but the "correct" flag to fly is either the Red Ensign or the Union flag (regardless of where specifically), depending on who you listen to.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah! good luck with this /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My take, right or wrong, none of us south of Hadrian's Wall take it that seriously, even the Cornish. I sail in Wales and fly a welsh dragon standard from the stb x-tree, but would not consider flying a George Cross in England, I don't know why [EDIT] yes I do, I fly the dragon because I enjoy being a Welsh boat, not some sad patriotic nationalistic stance, it is a pretty flag too.

In reality, you can't go wrong flying a red ensign on stbd, this is the correct flag, but this will upset separatists and angry old men in Cornwall who think they are already a separate country lol. Then you would end up with the headache of which flag should be prominent etc etc etc

I honestly believe, if you are wearing an Irish ensign and fly a uk red ensign on stbd, that will be plenty, it would be unfair for anyone to expect you to enter into our current petty politics and land grabbing fueds over here.

p.s. hope you have a great trip, we did when we went over to you, when are you coming over and do you have particular plans yet.

if this is just a wind up, then good one, you hooked me /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
It's normally the maritime flag I believe (i.e. the Red Ensign) though I have seen quite a few Union Flags flown as a courtesy flag. The Scottish and English ensigns are the equivalent of blue neon neon lights under your car or a flight of plaster ducks on the living room wall and should be avoided at all costs.

The English, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Northern Irish flags are often flown as well but should not be flown senior to the Red Ensign. It's a nice touch appreciated by many people here in the UK, especially those who don't want to be in it. Many of the rabid Celtic extremists (defined here as anyone not based between Poole and Chichester) would tell you that the Flag of St. George isn't often displayed but that's a load of rubbish.

For the next 4 weeks however you can fly any of the British or Irish flags defaced by the crest below...

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I can only speak personally on this, but I don't think most people are really bothered if you fly a courtesy flag or not...but in Wales and Scotland the national flags always go down well (and probably Cornwall as well). The correct answer is of course the Red Ensign.
 
Red Ensign from your starboard spreader. Actually, when going foreign you should fly the all-yellow 'quarantine' flag until cleared-in and then replace it with the courtesy flag of the nation you are visiting.
Flying the union flag is dodgy unless you have the Queen aboard. Flying the individual country flags - Scotland, Wales - may endear you to the locals but isn't 'legal'.
In the developed world the courtesy flag thing is becoming more traditional than mandatory but in some countries you can be fined for failing to follow the correct procedure. In Dominican Republic a few years ago they were doing a roaring trade selling courtesy flags at the immigration office! $10 a time, if I remember correctly.
 
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Flying the individual country flags - Scotland, Wales - may endear you to the locals but isn't 'legal'.


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Now that's an interesting point! I would assume that a courtesy flag is exactly that...a courtesy...and the legality or otherwise of the Welsh/Cornish/Scottish flags as maritime ensigns is neither here nor there when used in this way. Are you sure you're right on this SaltyJohn??
 
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Flying the individual country flags - Scotland, Wales - may endear you to the locals but isn't 'legal'.


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We're confusing correct procedure with a gesture to the locals.
The former entails flying the maritime flag of the host nation - and to be awkward our maritime flag is the red ensign, not the Union flag. In most other countries their national flag IS the maritime flag, so no ambiguity.

But the union flag is sold abroad so it's quite common to see foreigners innocently flying it here instead of a red duster. Fortunately our enforcement agencies don't consider that important enough for action.
But you try flying a Normandy or Breton flag instead of the French national colours as a friendly gesture - and you'll soon be boarded by the Maritime Police. Been there, papers demanded, and lucky to get away without a fine!

Reverting to the OP, your burgee and ensign at the stern show where you're coming from, the courtesy flag at the starb'd spreader show where you've arrived. That leaves the port spreader for other signals like Q flags - essential when coming/going to the Channel Islands, for example.

So what do I do when cruising Europe with the mast down???
 
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As far as I can gather, many people visiting the UK fly the local national flag, but the "correct" flag to fly is either the Red Ensign or the Union flag (regardless of where specifically), depending on who you listen to.


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The correct flag to wear as a courtesy ensign anywhere in the United Kingdom is the red ensign, flown from the starboard spreader. If you want to show an extra modicum of courtesy to the locals, than you can hoist the relevant local flag below the red ensign.

I think it is very sad that even basic courtesy, is derided, these days, by (very) amateur mariners.
 
Incidentally, it may be worth bearing in mind that all the nations of the United Kingdom except Wales are, in fact, represented in the Union Flag in the corner of the maritime ensign. I think the advocates of national flags for each sometimes forget this.
 
Am often amused to see what we call the 'Credit card flaggers' with 5 or more club cards at the spreaders some times without the red ensign at the stern! Imagine them being asked if they have a' Nectar' flag when paying at the Marina!!
Red Ensign and Club burgee for me!
 
I don't know to what extent the procedure is enforced in the UK, or even if it is enforceable. As long as the visitor flew his national flag of identity I'm sure no-one in authority here could care less what else was flown.
But if I was a visiting boat I would want to follow the correct practice and that is to fly my national ensign at the stern and, after clearing-in, fly the red ensign at the starboard spreader.
If I then added the local flag below the red ensign I'd feel I was keeping everyone happy.
In some countries they take the whole thing very seriously and hand out fines for breaking the rules - France has already been mentioned, so they clearly believe it is law, and enforceable.
 
Surely the fact that it is called a "courtesy" flag is all you need to know? Fly it as a courtesy. Fail to fly it - or fly an incorrect one, and it is clearly a publically displayed discourtesy.

Why would anyone want to insult the nation they are visiting, and why would anyone be the least bit surprised if some of the natives, or their authorities take offense when you did?

It is perhaps pertinent to remind ourselves that not everywhere in the world has the British chavvish, smug, disrespectful attitude not only to their own country, but to good manners too - or a tendency to admire those ingrates and ignorami who demonstrate it.

As to the correct flag, I'm not so sure it is the Red Ensign, I think the Union Flag is more likely to be correct, (which incedentally has nothing whatsoever to do with the Queen being aboard.) The requirement, after all, is to fly the "national flag", not the national Ensign - it is supposed to be a courtesy to the Nation you are visiting, not it's merchant marine. What do you suppose a visiting foreign warship displays, a merchant marine Ensign? Hell no. I think it is pretty clear which is the right one. The Red Ensign signifies a member of the British Merchant Marine, which any visitor clearly is not, (no one would suggest the use of the Blue or White as a courtesy flag - so why the Red?) and in any case is an Ensign, not a flag. It therefore cannot be "flown", and no-one "wears" a courtesy Ensign, do they? Thus the appropriate "flag" is the Union Flag, tho the Red Duster won't be too far wrong if that's all you have on board. Any other flag, Cornish (since when was a County a Country???Do you fly the Essex flag when in Burnham. Ridiculous.) Welsh! (Wales is a Principality, not a country...) or Scottish are just plain wrong, and therefore disrespectful. The Nation you are visiting is the UK, so fly their National flag, be it the Red Duster or Union, one of the two. I don't think anyone minds which.
 
Lol,there's some thread drift going on here. OP, the red duster is the correct one to fly. Look at it this way, you wouldn't expect a non Irish boat to fly a munster or leinster flag /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
I assume this wasn't intended as a response specifically to my posting. If you click on the post you're replying to it avoids confusion.
But to address one issue you raise - we're talking about protocol here, and flying the union flag at sea is a no-no. It's fine on land, the correct choice, but it isn't a sea flag except for the forces. The correct sea flag is the red ensign which is also the correct courtesy flag.
 
Quoting from Hewitt (1989). Flags and visual signals. C4/87 Royal Yachting Association.

Page 17: "It is customary, but not obligatory, when lying in a foreign port, to fly the maritime Ensign of the country being visited, as a mark of courtesy. ... ... The British maritime Ensign for use as a courtesy ensign is the Red Ensign and not the Union Flag."

I don't suppose the authorities here will give a damn about your courtesy flag though, just come and enjoy yourselves.
 
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