Council tax

[nimbusgb]

Apparently about 150 boats have been served with letters of intent to impose council taxes in Brighton Marina. I have just seen a letter mailed to a liveaboard by the VOA in Eastbourne so this is genuine.

It raises all sorts of issues no doubt with the cross over between a leased mooring, vat payable, taxable value and all sorts of rights and regulations.

Anyone else know what is going to happen about this?

 

[chinita]

http://www.premiermarinas.com/downloads/view/304

see para 12.

This forbids liveaboards. If there are no liveaboards, how can they be charged council tax?

 

[SeamanStaines]

I have had some experience of this. This was in Wales and a few years ago so it may have changed.

My understanding is that it is only chargeable providing the boat never actually moves out of the area. If for example you have a 'houseboat' that does not spend some part of the year away from the marina cruising then council tax is potentially chargeable (I think for this purpose it needs to be more than the odd afternoon out though!). A normal yacht liveaboard where the boat is away for some weeks or months 'breaks' the provision.

However, a proportionate rate is charged on static caravans (or permanently based touring caravans) and I suspect this is what they are trying to get.

In Swansea's case they decided at the time that whilst it was technically chargeable it would cost more to collect than the value so did not bother

 

[nimbusgb]

http://www.premiermarinas.com/downloads/view/304

see para 12.

This forbids liveaboards. If there are no liveaboards, how can they be charged council tax?

The whole paragraph says 'unless with the express permission of the marina manager'.

 

[dt4134]

Apparently about 150 boats have been served with letters of intent to impose council taxes in Brighton Marina. I have just seen a letter mailed to a liveaboard by the VOA in Eastbourne so this is genuine.

They could reply to the Brighton letters from Eastbourne and the Eastbourne one from Brighton.

Or better still Fecamp.

 

[nimbusgb]

They could reply to the Brighton letters from Eastbourne and the Eastbourne one from Brighton.

Or better still Fecamp.

Cute! I like it! Reckon I'll post his response letter from Greece for him next month !

 

[chinita]

The whole paragraph says 'unless with the express permission of the marina manager'.

Exactly, I wonder how many have the express permission of the Marina Manager?

All of them? How does the marina manager justify this to HQ Premier Marinas?

When I kept a boat in Brighton Marina, the attitude of those living aboard was 'don't ask, don't tell'

I look forward to hearing more of this from those already there.

 

[red beard]

This is a nightmare, when you say you know someone who is living aboard and got a letter, how would the council know they were living on the boat and where did they send the letter.
I live aboard and unless I was daft enough to write and tell the council exactly where I was they would never know.

 

[chinita]

This is a nightmare, when you say you know someone who is living aboard and got a letter, how would the council know they were living on the boat and where did they send the letter.
I live aboard and unless I was daft enough to write and tell the council exactly where I was they would never know.

Absolutely. How would the Council know which boats to deliver the notice? How did the Council Rep gain access to secure pontoons?

 

[Gumpy]

http://www.voa.gov.uk/instructions/...il_tax_man_pn/t-ct-man-pn7-appd.htm#TopOfPage

is chapter and verse as to who has to pay and who doesn't.

Generally in a marina if the marina can move your boat to another berth then you don't have to pay.

http://www.voa.gov.uk/instructions/...council_tax_man_pn/p-ct-man-pn7.htm#TopOfPage

Is the full Regs

 

[anon]

There's an awful lot of bad feeling at Brighton over this, apart from anything else the marina has given a list of names to the council which may in itself be in contravention of the data protection act. The marina has apparently (I don't know this as fact) used arbitrary criteria such as how often berth holders use their fob to access the marina and the size of electricity bill to decide on who to include, which (this I do know as fact) has resulted in some (but not all) of the people who live on their boats as well as some people who don't live on their boats receiving letters. The actual letter from the council suggests to me that they are confused about what is and is not liable for council tax and smacks of clutching at straws to get some extra revenue in (from their point of view can't blame them for that). The berth holders association at Brighton is advising members who have received letters on how to respond. Below is a summary of what I've been able to find out about living on a boat and council tax, I did quite a lot of trawling around before I came here to live on my boat...


According to Section 3 of the Local Government Finance Act 1992, Council Tax is levied on domestic property. A domestic property is defined as a property that is a dwelling. Whilst a boat can be a dwelling, it cannot in law be a property. The Council Tax Guidance Manual (2008), produced by the Valuation Tribunal Service’s Legal and Publications Advisory Committee states in Section 8.2.5: “Boats are generally held to be chattels in law and are therefore not liable to Council Tax. However, liability may arise in respect of the mooring occupied by a boat”. Therefore, a boat in itself will not attract liability for Council Tax. This is regardless of whether or not the boat is used as a dwelling. Council Tax may be levied on a mooring if the mooring has planning permission for permanent residential use.

A mooring with planning permission for permanent residential use can be liable for Council Tax, but only if the boat has exclusive occupancy of the mooring. In most of these cases, Council Tax is levied on the value of the mooring and not on the boat. Most residential boat moorings are in Council Tax Band A. In some cases, if the occupation of the mooring by the boat is deemed to be permanent, Council Tax is levied on the value of the mooring together with the value of the boat, but never on the value of the boat separately from the mooring. See the Rating (Caravans and Boats) Act 1996.

If the mooring has planning permission for residential use but is non-exclusive, for instance at a marina where if a boat moves another boat can be placed in the berth and a different mooring allocated or used upon return, then the occupancy of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent to be liable for Council Tax. This means that the occupier of the mooring will not be liable to pay Council Tax. However, the owner or operator of the marina may be liable for Council Tax in respect of the planning permission for the residential use of non-exclusive moorings.

Many private operators of permanent moorings, whether the moorings are residential or not, pay Business Rates. This is reflected in the mooring fee charged to each boat. Many marinas have planning permission for a certain number of permanent residential moorings. As detailed above, if the mooring contract states that the mooring is not exclusive, then the individual occupants of these residential moorings will not be liable to pay Council Tax.

The following example is from the Valuation Office Agency Web site:

"A man lives on a motor cruiser with living accommodation on board. He rents a berth in a marina comprising a finger pontoon at right angles to the bank with water supply and sewage pump-out. The marina operator controls access to the site and reserves a continual right to move the boat from its mooring. When the boat is absent, as it frequently is for weekends and holidays, and even though the boat owner pays rent continuously in order to reserve a berth at the site, the marina operator allows other boats to use the mooring.

Although the mooring is virtually in permanent use and affords self-containment to any boat with living accommodation, the cruiser owner's occupation of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent for him to be liable for Council Tax. The marina operator is in paramount occupation of the mooring for the purposes of his business of running a marina. If the other boats which use the mooring are also someone's sole or main residence, only the mooring would be domestic property and subject to banding. The boat itself would not be included in the valuation.

If the other boats which use the mooring are not someone's sole or main residence or there is no way of knowing what their use would be, the mooring will be non-domestic. If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation."

The berths at Brighton are not (to my knowledge) residential with planning permission, neither are they berths to which any berth holder has exclusive access - the standard 12 month berthing contract states "We will be entitled from time to time to reallocate berths and whilst we do make reasonable efforts to ensure you can use the same berth you are not entitled to the exclusive use of any particular berth."

Therefore (in my opinion) berth holders at Brighton cannot be held liable for council tax irrespective of whether or not a boat berthed there is their normal place of residence. I have also read somewhere that the fact of paying VAT on berthing fees at marinas renders the berth holder not liable for council tax.

The deadline for replies to the council's letters is 11/3, it will be interesting to see what the outcome of all this is, it's not good.

And if you hadn't guessed already, I am a liveaboard berth holder at Brighton Marina who hasn't yet received a letter...

 

[ukmctc]

As I understansd it, the boat must be on a perminant berth, there must be road/path direct to your property paid for and maintained at public expense, you have your own bin or bins collected by the council and all of this is seperate to the marina facilities.
If you pay the marina direct for all of these services and the marina pays council tax as a business then you pay the marina, you don't pay twice!
The marina will have to change its fee's to deduct its charges of tax/vat so you pay at a non business rate to the council,
how do they value your property?
what band would it be in?
No toilet, no shower.....rehoused at council expense...
I think you'll find it'll all fizz out and die, as its way too complicated for local council to handle.
A house boat on the other hand is a HOUSE boat and moored under different terms and conditions, they pay council tax unless its part of the rent on the mooring.
This is as I understand it, and as I don't pay council tax it works for me.

 

[Sandyman]

Been round this buoy before.

To me this seems nothing more than some Council jobsworth who hates the fact that a large
number of people are living in Brighton & not paying Council Taxes. They are just trying it on to see if they can frighten some into paying. Seems standard practice these days to use threats and fear as a weapon to intimidate people into paying.
As the law is written they clearly are not liable, though it could be that they are really after prosecuting someone in order to set a precedent in law.
Its the fact that so many live there that the Council (or Mr Jobsworth) see's a chance to increase the Councils coffers.
There are just a few Liveaboards in our marina so probably not enough to attract Council attention. Let them try.

 

[RUSSH]

Presumably those who vehemently oppose paying council tax are not availing themselves of any of the services that this tax provides for. In which case they shouldn't have to contribute. But then if this not the case......

I'll get my coat.

 

[KellysEye]

>There's an awful lot of bad feeling at Brighton over this, apart from anything else the marina has given a list of names to the council which may in itself be in contravention of the data protection act.

We lived aboard for about six weeks in Burnham marina preparing the boat to go long distance cruising. We told the marina what we intended to do and they said don't make it obvious you are living aboard (such as hanging washing out) otherwise we will have to tell the Council. My understanding of that is that the onus is on the marina to tell the council you are living aboard and the marina said that we would be liable for council tax. The marina had no vacant berths.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

 

[anon]

Presumably those who vehemently oppose paying council tax are not availing themselves of any of the services that this tax provides for. In which case they shouldn't have to contribute. But then if this not the case......

I'll get my coat.

I don't know specifically which services are covered by council tax and which aren't, but our rubbish is collected by marina staff from communal bins, our access routes are not publicly maintained, neither is our water from hoses on the pontoons, they are part of the berthing fee. It is not a requirement in law that someone has to be a council tax payer in order to access council run services, libraries for example...

 

[nimbusgb]

Why don't the liveaboards simply arrange to swap moorings between two boats on a regular basis? Then post could legitimately be returned as 'no longer at this address'. Better still simply swap with your neighbouring boat on the same finger, especially if they are non live aboards!

 

[Roaring Girl]

Anon is right in his quotations as is the person on the previous page, and if the VOA haven't changed the rules that still stands. But

(i) when we lived aboard in Brighton there were several people living aboard who never moved their boats, (probably couldn't) and in general were just freeloading in arguably dangerous craft
(ii) we know of people who tried to claim housing benefit on their mooring costs, and who then faced a council tax bill (20% of total), precisely because they had called the boat a permanent home. Well, that seems fair enough.
(iii) Councils are indeed desperate for money - it's called frontloaded deficit reduction and is generating both enormous service damage and hard looks at revenue collection.
(iv) it's not just the bins. Roads, libraries, museums, signage, bus routes (not all), schools, parks, sports centres, regulation (including ensuring restaurants don't poison you) - and in Brighton the seafront esplanade. Really - using absolutely none of the above?

If someone wants to hold my coat ...

 

[phantomlady]

Anon is right in his quotations as is the person on the previous page, and if the VOA haven't changed the rules that still stands. But

(i) when we lived aboard in Brighton there were several people living aboard who never moved their boats, (probably couldn't) and in general were just freeloading in arguably dangerous craft
(ii) we know of people who tried to claim housing benefit on their mooring costs, and who then faced a council tax bill (20% of total), precisely because they had called the boat a permanent home. Well, that seems fair enough.
(iii) Councils are indeed desperate for money - it's called frontloaded deficit reduction and is generating both enormous service damage and hard looks at revenue collection.
(iv) it's not just the bins. Roads, libraries, museums, signage, bus routes (not all), schools, parks, sports centres, regulation (including ensuring restaurants don't poison you) - and in Brighton the seafront esplanade. Really - using absolutely none of the above?

If someone wants to hold my coat ...

But surely, if by law coucil tax is levied on property, it is irrelevant whether people use the services or not. Poll Tax....now that's a different matter.

 

[anon]

Anon is right in his quotations as is the person on the previous page, and if the VOA haven't changed the rules that still stands. But

(i) when we lived aboard in Brighton there were several people living aboard who never moved their boats, (probably couldn't) and in general were just freeloading in arguably dangerous craft
(ii) we know of people who tried to claim housing benefit on their mooring costs, and who then faced a council tax bill (20% of total), precisely because they had called the boat a permanent home. Well, that seems fair enough.
(iii) Councils are indeed desperate for money - it's called frontloaded deficit reduction and is generating both enormous service damage and hard looks at revenue collection.
(iv) it's not just the bins. Roads, libraries, museums, signage, bus routes (not all), schools, parks, sports centres, regulation (including ensuring restaurants don't poison you) - and in Brighton the seafront esplanade. Really - using absolutely none of the above?

If someone wants to hold my coat ...

i You've lived here, you know that most of us are working for a living or retired. What would you do, throw the "others" out of their homes? They certainly don't bother me...
ii Yeah well that's the deal I suppose....
iii I thought "desperate for money" sufficed...
iv Still no requirement to pay the council's domestic property tax in order to access council run services. Or eat in your local branch of McDonalds either as far as I am aware...