Could similar Lifeboat incidents happen again

[Capt Popeye]

Please accept that following the advent of a terrible lifeboat disaster , could it happen again

Allthogth a BOT and other Enquiries have been held do they really get to the crunch and deal with preventing another incident happening again

If the Coastguards now have far greater control and authority over Boating /Shipping in our Terrertorial Waters could or can or even would they take the really tough decisions over who is saved and who is not

If in an Marine incident it becomes plainly obvious that there cannot be a full rescue and recovery of all involved , then will a decision be made to carry out saving what /whom can be saved on the basis of 'doing whats possible' in the circumstances ?

I am mindfull of the Ship Captain ordering watertight doors to be closed to prevent a Ship flooding when there are Men the otherside of that door , its been done many times , to save the Ship and as many men as possible ; really tough decision but as needs , needed doing in the circumstances

Would similar be done today by the Coastguards ?

 

[Boathook]

I think that another disaster could happen, though less likely. There was one in France a few years ago with loss of life.
Whilst the coastguard request the lifeboat to launch, I do believe that the crew make the final decision whether to go or not. Its not a decision I would like to make when a life maybe lost.

Regarding watertight doors on a ship I was on an overnight ferry crossing and the cabin seemed to be in the bilge! I noticed water tight doors on various sections as we passed through to our cabin from the main staircase. I also noticed much smaller staircases in each section so if the watertight doors shut, we should have been able to 'escape'.

 

[Chae_73]

Today's lifeboats are significantly more capable than those which were in service in the '60s, 70s, and 80s.

So i'd like to think that the chances of loss of life are lesser, whilst obviously still present.

 

[Stemar]

The short answer is yes. No matter how good the boats are, the sea is more powerful than them, and trying to get people off a ship with huge waves breaking over it is never going to be a safe operation and, no matter how well maintained the lifeboats are, things will fail.

What would reduce the odds are if the CG can deem a boat to be in peril and evacuate the crew before it gets too close to the shore, where waves are steeper and higher. Was that one of the outcomes of Penlee?

 

[Moodysailor]

The whole basis of marine classification societies is that prevention is better than the alternative.

Thankfully, the marine industry generally is always getting safer and safer - environmentally, commercially, and on the rescue side. Modern equipment means that vessels are safer, techniques are better, and rescue crews can reach vessels faster.

However, the sea will always claim the upper hand at some point. It's a sobering reality of the sea and mother nature in general. We can only ever be respectful of that, and eternally grateful for the brave men & women who put themselves in harms way to save others.

 

[oldharry]

The short answer is yes. No matter how good the boats are, the sea is more powerful than them, and trying to get people off a ship with huge waves breaking over it is never going to be a safe operation and, no matter how well maintained the lifeboats are, things will fail.

What would reduce the odds are if the CG can deem a boat to be in peril and evacuate the crew before it gets too close to the shore, where waves are steeper and higher. Was that one of the outcomes of Penlee?

It has always been the on scene commander who calls the shots. No lifeboat ever built could have survived what appears to have happened to the Penlee boat. No one will ever willingly pull away from a rescue if there is still a chance of saving lives, and however experienced, a CoastGuard officer sat in a safe warm office directing a rescue (no criticism intended) is in no position to make that final, potentially fatal decision either way. He cannot possibly decide from one wave to the next what the boat should do. The Penlee Cox clearly judged it was possible to get the last survivors off, maybe from watching the wave patterns. As so often happens at sea, they had managed to get people off up to that point, until as Moodysailor says, the sea got the upper hand.

 

[Giblets]

I believe the Coastguard now have greater powers in getting a tug to latch up with a casualty effectively overriding the master's decision not to. Had this been the case in the Penlee incident and happened earlier in the timeline the disaster may have been averted.

 

[Stemar]

however experienced, a CoastGuard officer sat in a safe warm office directing a rescue (no criticism intended) is in no position to make that final, potentially fatal decision either way

Absolutely agree, but he is in a position to look at the weather and currents in the area and make a judgement that a rescue now will be easier and less dangerous than one in a few hours time, when even the owners, with eyes firmly on the bottom line, have to admit that it's necessary. IIRC, the Penlee rescue was being done in such dreadful conditions because the owners or the captain had refused a tow until it was too late.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I viewed a Penlee video on Utube and noted the difference (apparent to me) between the RNLI and the Helicopter Pilot ; the Helicopter decided that it was not safe or practiae for the Helicopter to further attempt a rescue as the Ships Masts and Ship rolling actions made it impracticle /dangerous to attempt using a Wich Guy ; so stood the Helicopter off leaving the rescue to the Lifeboat alone .

I am troubled that the Lifeboat when having taken off 3 persons so having 3 saved persons plus the crew did not 'fall away' and call it a day (for the time being) and be content with those on board being returned to shore /safety . Which would have been a tremendous feat of skill and daring .

Perhaps the RNLI have a belief in 'never giving up' whereas the Emergency Helicopter crew I suppose do not have a History going back that far, so go as far as practically possible but are taught to 'fall off' before an incident becomes a casualty ?

I do not know whats what being taught by either the RNLI or the Rescue Helicopters these days , but do wonder if such Group survival instructions are given to Emergency Helicopter crews, Cave Rescue operations , Cliff rescue operations /teams and any others involved in rescue operations

Just a question thats 'bugging me'

 

[penberth3]

.......the Penlee rescue was being done in such dreadful conditions because the owners or the captain had refused a tow until it was too late.

That assumes a tow could have been connected and then the ship could have been pulled clear without breaking the tow. All very unlikely in the severe conditions.

 

[Capt Popeye]

That assumes a tow could have been connected and then the ship could have been pulled clear without breaking the tow. All very unlikely in the severe conditions.

Well maybe so but maybe not ?

I understand that the first offer by a tug was made when the Ship was a few miles offshore and in slightly calmer sea /wind conditions , so getting a Tow Line aboard the Ship was pretty normal an operation ; when eventually the Ship sought a Tow there was not enough Water under keel of the Rescue Tug to get a line accross ; the Video records the actuall response from the Ships Captain to the Rescue Tug when the CG asked what was happening about the Tow Offer ; Bet in his last hour /minuets the Ships Captain regreted his declining of the offer , with his Wife and Family aboard ;

Might suggest that Rescue Tugs etc work in the most fierce Sea and Wind conditions so are used to achieving whats seems impossible to us

 

[PilotWolf]

I believe the Coastguard now have greater powers in getting a tug to latch up with a casualty effectively overriding the master's decision not to. Had this been the case in the Penlee incident and happened earlier in the timeline the disaster may have been averted.

Interested to know if this has been done?

Also what if the crew refuse to cooperate with taking the tow?

W.

 

[Stemar]

Also what if the crew refuse to cooperate with taking the tow?

I would hope that the LB's Skipper would simply tell them, "OK, you're the one who will have to explain your decision to the Coroner. If you're still around to do it." The right thing to do would then be to bugger off back to base for a nice mug of hot chocolate, (nothing stronger, they may get another callout), but I rather think the kind of people who become lifeboat crews would hang around to try and pick up the pieces.

 

[PilotWolf]

I would hope that the LB's Skipper would simply tell them, "OK, you're the one who will have to explain your decision to the Coroner. If you're still around to do it." The right thing to do would then be to bugger off back to base for a nice mug of hot chocolate, (nothing stronger, they may get another callout), but I rather think the kind of people who become lifeboat crews would hang around to try and pick up the pieces.

I was thinking more regarding a commercial (tug) tow that the coastguard had insisted on.

W.

 

[penberth3]

Interested to know if this has been done?

Also what if the crew refuse to cooperate with taking the tow?

W.

HMCG have used their delegated powers many times to instruct a ship. Can't give you an example of tow off the top of my head, but it must have happened.

Refusing to co-operate with a statutory order would get them in a whole lot of trouble.

 

[Capt Popeye]

I understood that at one time (for many years) the Govt had Salvage /Towing Rescue Ships stationed around our Coasts , but I overheard (sure that I did) a Civil Servant discussing this , at a Meeting , and it was mentioned that the Govt Rescue Ships do not charge for any rescue , as a result the Govt was withdrawing the Rescue Facility in favour of Commercial Rescue Ships plying for trade etc .

 

[Kukri]

The Government chartered rescue tugs were a casualty of “austerity” in 2011.

They had been needed because there were no longer enough casualties around our coasts for station keeping salvage tugs to cover their costs.

For the last ten years there have been no salvage tugs anywhere in Britain.

 

[penberth3]

I understood that at one time (for many years) the Govt had Salvage /Towing Rescue Ships stationed around our Coasts , but I overheard (sure that I did) a Civil Servant discussing this , at a Meeting , and it was mentioned that the Govt Rescue Ships do not charge for any rescue , as a result the Govt was withdrawing the Rescue Facility in favour of Commercial Rescue Ships plying for trade etc .

Yes there were a few (4?) large "emergency towing vessels" around the country on a government contract. They did very little useful work and were eventually judged to be a waste of public money, and unlikely to be closer to any incident than a commercial tug. No idea what the charging arrangements were.

 

[NorthUp]

The " Ivoli Black" still loiters around the Minch and Orkney waters on contract, but she does not escort large ships through the recommended routes at the north of Skye as her predecessors did.
In an incident the tugs on charter to the CG came off hire and worked privately.. and the MCA took a slice of the action for their trouble. Doubt if you'll find published details of that little gem though.

 

[NorthUp]

Yes there were a few (4?) large "emergency towing vessels" around the country on a government contract. They did very little useful work and were eventually judged to be a waste of public money, and unlikely to be closer to any incident than a commercial tug. No idea what the charging arrangements were.

They did more than just a little work, and like the fire extinguisher in the corner eventually 1 job would payback everything- just a matter of time.
Search for " Bill Deacon", he paid the price for ships not calling for a tug in time as did Penlee and probably others.