Costs of different size boats.

[Denek]

Hi all.
So I am still looking around at boats to view when I return from the states and originally I was looking at around 32 feet. There are boats in my budget that are longer than this but I am concerned about the increase in costs for a larger boat. The extra space would be nice though.
Is there some sort of price per foot that I could apply which makes this easier to work out the costs?
I am not really talking about maintenance here but more costs for mooring and marinas and insurance and fuel too I guess plus anything else you can think of.
The maintenance I know will vary depending on the boats condition to start with and the age.
If there is a formula of some sort that would help. If not I will have to research and make one up.
There are some nice looking 36 footers around but will my "living budget "stand the extra cost?

Thanks folks.

 

[Kelpie]

Berthing is about the only thing that scales directly with boat length.
Insurance is generally a function of boat value, assuming fully comp.
Costs of sails and rigging obviously increase as a boat gets bigger, but this will depend on the design- a complex rig with multiple spreaders, or more than one mast, will cost a lot more to rig, whilst sails scale roughly with area (although three smaller sails will cost more than two larger ones).
Fuel consumption is generally not a huge issue for sailing boats, compared to other annual costs. In my experience you'll use about a litre per hour per 15hp of engine, but the efficiency of the whole drivetrain and the weight and slipperiness of the boat will affect this.

 

[Bobc]

As far as moorings go, most are charged by the foot length. So for instance, if a 32ft boat is £32/night, then a 36ft boat will be £36/night. If you think that the extra comfort is worth £4/night extra, then get the bigger boat.

As for fuel, it really make little or no difference.

My advice for anyone looking to liveaboard or do extended cruising, would be to get the biggest boat you can.

 

[Tranona]

As far as moorings go, most are charged by the foot length. So for instance, if a 32ft boat is £32/night, then a 36ft boat will be £36/night. If you think that the extra comfort is worth £4/night extra, then get the bigger boat.

As for fuel, it really make little or no difference.

My advice for anyone looking to liveaboard or do extended cruising, would be to get the biggest boat you can.

+1

Length is not necessarily a good measure of what you are getting. My current 33 is essentially the same size as my old 37 because it has no overhangs. The extra 4' that I paid mooring fees for was essentially wasted space for accommodation but useful in the extra aft had a good boarding platform, although the new one has a drop down.

In the size range you are looking at there is not a huge difference in costs in the short to medium term as these (apart from mooring costs) are largely determined by the condition of the boat you buy. No point in trying to work out a formula. However it is useful to perhaps seek out some of the many magazine articles, threads on here, blogs etc where people share their costs. You will find if you buy the right boat, boat costs, apart from moorings (particularly if you choose a marina base lifestyle) are a relatively small proportion of overall costs. You will also find annual budgets similarly variable because people tend to choose a lifestyle that fits their budget and expectations.

On the other hand the benefits of larger boat from a living point of view are much greater typically. Space goes up to the cube of length increase and for most boats you look at the difference between 32 and 36 will be significant. You will also find there are some boats that hit the sweet spot and stand out from others of similar nominal size as being a good compromise of space and capability. Two examples I would put in that category , one from the "old" and one from the "new" are Westerly Discus and Bavaria 34. They both set new standards in usable accommodation for their size while still retaining good sailing ability and were big sellers for those reasons.

Think you will find that once you have looked at a few boats your ideas will crystalise and the right boat for you will stand out.

 

[alant]

As far as moorings go, most are charged by the foot length. So for instance, if a 32ft boat is £32/night, then a 36ft boat will be £36/night. If you think that the extra comfort is worth £4/night extra, then get the bigger boat.

As for fuel, it really make little or no difference.

My advice for anyone looking to liveaboard or do extended cruising, would be to get the biggest boat you can.

The peculiarity of those costs, being that they pay per length of boat, even if occupying a larger/smaller pontoon slot.

 

[Denek]

Thanks. I kinda think it may be worth the extra few pounds per night.our intention is to only use marinas when we have to.
We will be leaving for the med from the U.K. I hope next summer and we will not be living aboard all the time but for extended periods ( I envisage around three months at a time).
I think it's likely to be a couple of seasons before we hit the med I think it's likely to be towards the end of next summer before we leave as we have to sell our house in the UK. We are not selling to buy the boat however so I am looking to have the boat for a while before we go.
This forum has been very useful for advice so far.

 

[ashtead]

As a former owner of a Bavaria 34 from 2001 and having sailed the slightly later 36 the size differences are minimal eg the galley is marginally wider access on a 36 however there are downsides eg you cannot walk round the wheel on the 36 we sailed so have to step up on seat . Best to look at both but the 36 is a newer boat .Also be aware that in Bavaria land numbering is not always representative of actual length so a Bav 34 is approx. 35ft 8 inchs say and different years adopt different approaches . As has been said these boats all had sterns with scoops whereas now the equivalents have flat sterns with drop downs . That sounds good however I read of reports of problems with the drop down electric mechanisms on Bav sterns so something to be mindful of when considering drop down arrangement. You will soon see that more modern boats are quite beamy - that might sound like that you gain a larger saloon however all that space down below can be too much in any sort of seaway in absence of handholds. We are at a marina and having traded up from a 34 to 41 our costs have increased but so have all round capacity and comfort as the displacement has increased from the Bav 34 . The point here is that any longer boat will be likely to be heavier which generally is good in sailing comfort stakes however it is more difficult to push around on a pontoon for example . That said as size increases you might find labour saving devices which would not be on a 34 say or a bigger fridge and lazarette . You also can obtain high internal height which might assist but different makes have different views on head clearance height and if you are looking at stern cabin boats the through walk ways can be hobbitt like on some even if longer . Clearly a lot of this will be driven by budget (do you have a brand or country of origin preference?) and availability though and desire to travel to view/acquire your chosen model. You might like the charm of a more cosy Najad or Hallberg and be prepared to sacrifice the space for the looks Surprisingly there are relatively few second hand vessels in good condition out there we found within a certain size bracket and age though . Might be worth a trip down to Hamble point or Deacons or suchlike locations though before you do more just to walk around interiors and feel the differences but within a size band of the 30-36ft range it might just come down to other features found on a particular model eg heating or whatever which sways you. . Good luck

When we looked for our first boat we looked at the smaller Bav however felt the 34 offered the extra space we required but the 37 was a step to far as a first owned boat so views might be influenced by prior experience . Having charted a Bav 50 a few years ago in the Med all the bits are much the same but you end up with more heads and more space to party in the saloon but you notice that travel time is reduced by some 15 foot however not so noticeable in a few feet.
If you are concerned at berthing costs there was a guide in a PBO magazine so that might help but otherwise so long as you don't have to start replacing /installing kit differences are not huge but for example a cockpit enclosure might be on your list of new items and might be a few hundred more for a longer cockpit etc .

 

[Fluvial66]

We have a 34 ft boat, (10.52 meters). We have spent the past 2 seasons taking it from
Dartmouth to the Med. Each season we have lived on it for 4 months, leaving it for the
winter.
It costs me approx 10 to 12000 pounds a year to have the boat. I save 4 to 5 thousand over winter for the following season, and add 1800 a month whilst cruising.
This covers running costs, marinas (most nights) and living costs (food etc).
For me 34ft gives plenty of space for 2, keeps marina costs reasonable, (anywhere between 25 to 40 euro a night). I can single hand when needed and get in and out of
small harbours with ease. Very important on the N coast of Spain.
She is 17 yrs old so every winter there is a maintenance programme replacing various
internal and external equipment.
But, 4 months in the summer is lovely. I have no wish to live on her fulltime !

 

[Denek]

Interesting this. We will have an income of around £14-15k per year and we intended to top this up from savings.
Sounds like it is doable for sure. I am 62 and so we will need to dip into the savings to we get our massive ( not) state pension. I don't have the figures in front of me but I think we thought a budget of around £24k per year would do it but it looks like that may be a little light because I think that invluded travel to and from the boat.

Going back to what Ashtead has said we have discounted a rear cabin in favor of more outside space but the cockpit canopy sounds like a good idea, especially at the start whilst we are moving down the Atlantic coast.

The intention is to find free anchorages as much as possible but we will off course need to stop off in marinas pretty often I would think.
Sort of unrelated question here but what do you guys do about washing as most of these boats do not seem to have overly large water tanks or holding tanks? I take it you do wash We will need to carry extra water I am sure but this is where the marinas will make their money from me as I do like a nice long hot shower.

 

[Tranona]

That is one of the compromises you have to make. However, once you get to warmer climates you can use a deck shower - black bag of water hung from the cross trees warming the water although you still have the water supply issue.

If you are only part time, ie a few weeks or months at a time on board it is easier to compromise and work within the resources you have, unlike full time liveaboards who have no fixed home base. Extra water capacity is something to consider with for example flexible tanks or large portable containers. There is always a dilemma as to how you use your storage space and only you can decide (probably as you build your experience) what works for you. Quite possible to live comfortably on less than 20l of water per person per day.

Much the same with holding tanks. Use shore facilities whenever you can. There are few restrictions on disposing of waste direct except obviously in areas where people are swimming etc or in harbours and marinas. You have to use your common sense about when to use a holding tank. You may be lucky and find a boat already equipped with one, but if adding one look to a budget of £1k to do it effectively (depending on the boat).

You have to accept that most production boats are not designed for extended living, but usually around the maximum number of sleeping berths so you have to work with it. We specified twin aft cabins to maximise income when the boat was chartered, but used the second aft cabin for storage when we later spent extended periods on board.

 

[Denek]

Thanks for the heads up. No pun intended! On the cost of installing a holding tank, I would not have thought to budget that much.
The idea of getting the boat well before we leave is to try to get everything in place in advance. There will only be two of us unless anyone comes to stay so we will be able to sacrifice a berth or two for stowage I think.
Sounds like most of it will be water containers.
How often on average do you use a marina?
The holding tank is a must for me especially having read another post here about a yacht discharging the heads into a harbor complete with toilet paper. not nice.
I think what I am looking for is an AWB with newish standing rigging and engine plus a holding tank 32-34 feet rear cockpit for around £30k
Anyone help with that?

 

[Fluvial66]

We have a fitted holding tank but only use it for urine, nothing else goes into it.
I have been on too many boats with blocked heads to risk it.
Toilet facilities and showers we use marinas - generally the standard is perfectly
acceptable.
I have 2 water tanks, they last up to a week between filling, but we don,t shower on
the boat apart from a quick deck shower after a swim.
Water for the kettle we take from pontoon taps, water for drinking we buy. We empty
the holding tank at sea daily, but its only urine diluted with flushed sea water.
I had the boat in the UK for a couple of seasons to get used to her and fitted out before
starting our trip south. A thoroughly enjoyable experience, really glad that we took
the plunge !

 

[duncan99210]

When we were planing the great escape, we were advised to get the biggest boat we could afford that we felt able to cope with and ended up with a Bavaria 38 (11.97 m according to the makers details). Three cabin layout and, like Tranona, we use the third cabin as a shed.
Water: the boat has 300 litres of tankage which with two of us on board lasts for about ten days. We have a sea water tap fitted in the galley sink for washing up, which saves loads of water (also a tap in the anchor locker for deck wash down and anchor chain cleaning). Generally we fill up at fuel berths (buy 20 litres of diesel, fill tanks for free or a small charge) or by using cans filled from a tap ashore (two dinghy trips = one full tank).
Holding tank: we have a 100 litre tank fitted into one of the cockpit lockers: I fitted it and it cost about £400 (including pipes and valves) 8 years ago. Takes two of us about a week to fill..... on a normal diet... Pump out is by manual pump, done at sea. We use it for solid waste only and haven't had a blockage in 8 years. However, we have a strict nothing down the head except what you've eaten, all paper into the bin: I think that putting paper down the head is asking for trouble. Also means you can use proper comfy bum paper not the fragile expensive stuff sold in chandlers for the purpose.....
Berthing costs. Most Med marinas use a simple per metre rate but some, especially in Spain, charge in bands; up to 7m, up to 10m, up to 12m and then a significant to jump to up to 15m. Be aware of that when planing where to leave the boat during the winter.

 

[Denek]

Thanks for that info Duncan. I guess I will see where my budget takes me. Been waiting a long time for this so I want to get it right.

 

[stranded]

we have discounted a rear cabin in favor of more outside space.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. It is certainly true that beamy aft cockpits tend to have much bigger cockpits, and therefore dining tables. But for overall usable sociable space, I think we (Sunbeam 44) beat most aft cockpit boats of a similar size we have seen. The combination of decent sized cockpit (for a CC) generous level deck area behind that, dolphin seats with wide flat deck access, and 'bathing steps' in the sugar scoop that are wide enough and deep enough to lie on in a c, or seat 6 comfortably, means that the sitters, the sunbathers, the swimmers, the fishermen and the smokers can all be comfortably accommodated in easy conversational distance but without impinging on each other. I say this only because having looked at a new Oceanis before we plumped for Nooka, I though that vast cockpit was the one thing we would regret not having, but as we have moved south we have come to really appreciate the slightly discrete (I am leaving that unchecked to possibly amuse the grammar police!) outside areas. Don't know how that would scale down, but might be worth at least thinking in those terms if any CCs do take your fancy on other grounds.

 

[ashtead]

Nooka

A Sunbeam at 44 sounds lovely and at that length a CC probably doesn't suffer the disadvantages of a smaller CC vessel might have re outside space. Most older CC boats in the 36 range might be the ones the OP had in mind . Even by 37/ 38 foot the cockpit in a Moody CC isn't generous.

 

[Tranona]

Nooka

A Sunbeam at 44 sounds lovely and at that length a CC probably doesn't suffer the disadvantages of a smaller CC vessel might have re outside space. Most older CC boats in the 36 range might be the ones the OP had in mind . Even by 37/ 38 foot the cockpit in a Moody CC isn't generous.

Agree. Once you get over 40' then an AC boat can make sense. However it is still not ideal if your objective is cruising the Med where stern to mooring is the norm and the cockpit becomes your living room. I have used both in the Med and would not have a centre cockpit again through choice.

 

[stranded]

Agree. Once you get over 40' then an AC boat can make sense. However it is still not ideal if your objective is cruising the Med where stern to mooring is the norm and the cockpit becomes your living room. I have used both in the Med and would not have a centre cockpit again through choice.

Haven't had to do Med mooring on Nooka yet, but can see I am going to have to hone my rope throwing skills to hit the target from the wheel. Also thinking about repurposing the fishing rods on each aft quarter as mooring line 'servers', cause they sure as heck are no bloomin' use for fishing!

 

[ashtead]

Haven't had to do Med mooring on Nooka yet, but can see I am going to have to hone my rope throwing skills to hit the target from the wheel. Also thinking about repurposing the fishing rods on each aft quarter as mooring line 'servers', cause they sure as heck are no bloomin' use for fishing!

You need to have some spinning reels bolted to the aft quarter rails - provided you don't mind tuna on the teak decks they eventually produce a lovely dinner .

 

[Tranona]

Haven't had to do Med mooring on Nooka yet, but can see I am going to have to hone my rope throwing skills to hit the target from the wheel. Also thinking about repurposing the fishing rods on each aft quarter as mooring line 'servers', cause they sure as heck are no bloomin' use for fishing!

In some marinas you will invariably have help, but life is much easier if you have a crew member handling the stern lines. They may also be required to then take the lazy line and run forward to attach to the bow. Further east you will find lazy lines less common and will have to drop the anchor and then back up to the quay, so a windlass control at the helm is very useful - ideally a wireless remote which you can operate from anywhere. MIne also has the bow thruster on the same handset.

It is then you will appreciate why an aft cockpit and walk through transom is so popular, although the drop down type that is becoming common is less useful.