Costa Concordia - Last 18 minutes

[Kukri]

"Trust me - I used to be a salvage lawyer!"

(I really did!)

There is no truth in it whatsoever.

If the ship is abandoned by all her crew "sine spe revertendi" (without any hope of returning to her) and is salvaged, the salvage award will be a little bigger than if the crew remain on board and help.

In any case this ship is beyond salvage; she is a total loss

 

[haydude]

The full story remains to be told, but one fact remains apparently undisputed, that it was at least 50 minutes before a mayday was declared that given the known facts is surely inexcusable.

It appears that the captain was under pressure from his employer to launch a mayday only as last resort because of the costs involved in case of a false alarm. It appears as well that Schettino was misinformed on the capability of the ship to support flooding without listing as she did, which would have provided plenty more time for evacuation.

However the engine room officer declared that:
1) he new that the ship could flood three engine room compartments without sinking
2) it was later clarified that technically she could support only up to two flooded compartments
3) the engine room officer estimated (he could not verify because the doors were soon shut) that five compartments were flooded. But did this information get through to the Captain or was it just an hindsigh estimate? He does not clarify.

Whilst on the phone with his "technical support" Schettino asked for tow boats, clearly believing that although disabled, the ship could stay afloat.

It is likely that the uncertainty around (3) and (1) together with the costs associated with a mayday led to the decision to wait and that the ship badly listing eventually precipitated the situation.

 

[Kukri]

It appears that the captain was under pressure from his employer to launch a mayday only as last resort because of the costs involved in case of a false alarm. It appears as well that Schettino was misinformed on the capability of the ship to support flooding without listing as she did, which would have provided plenty more time for evacuation.

However the engine room officer declared that:
1) he new that the ship could flood three engine room compartments without sinking
2) it was later clarified that technically she could support only up to two flooded compartments
3) the engine room officer estimated (he could not verify because the doors were soon shut) that five compartments were flooded. But did this information get through to the Captain or was it just an hindsigh estimate? He does not clarify.

Whilst on the phone with his "technical support" Schettino asked for tow boats, clearly believing that although disabled, the ship could stay afloat.

It is likely that the uncertainty around (3) and (1) together with the costs associated with a mayday led to the decision to wait and that the ship badly listing eventually precipitated the situation.

Thank you for a really excellent post with a lot of information that I had not seen before and which makes very good sense.

The only thing that surprises me is that the engineer expected the ship to float with three compartments flooded, because one of the things that "every cadet knows" is that cargo ships are built to a "one compartment standard" and passenger ships are built to a "two compartment standard" meaning that cargo ships should float with any one compartment open to the sea and passengers ships should float with any two compartments open to the sea.

I find it completely plausible, based on other cases where I have been either involved at the time or concerned as an investigator afterwards, that the conversation between Captain Schettino and the office would have been long and detailed with numerous assumptions made on inadequate information and only slowly clarified.

 

[glashen]

It appears that the captain was under pressure from his employer to launch a mayday only as last resort because of the costs involved in case of a false alarm. It appears as well that Schettino was misinformed on the capability of the ship to support flooding without listing as she did, which would have provided plenty more time for evacuation.

However the engine room officer declared that:
1) he new that the ship could flood three engine room compartments without sinking
2) it was later clarified that technically she could support only up to two flooded compartments
3) the engine room officer estimated (he could not verify because the doors were soon shut) that five compartments were flooded. But did this information get through to the Captain or was it just an hindsigh estimate? He does not clarify.

Whilst on the phone with his "technical support" Schettino asked for tow boats, clearly believing that although disabled, the ship could stay afloat.

It is likely that the uncertainty around (3) and (1) together with the costs associated with a mayday led to the decision to wait and that the ship badly listing eventually precipitated the situation.

That is interesting but does not change the fact that the ship had suffered substantial damage and loss of power, to me it was clearly a Mayday, whether that Mayday would include Abandoning ship could be determined later but the delay in declaring a Mayday IMHO almost certainly caused loss of life. The decision was clearly the Captains not the owners that is his job.

 

[haydude]

If one declares a MayDay including abandon ship, does this affect ownership or salvage rights? Someone told me this week-end that once the captain orders abandon ship, the ship becomes the property of the harbour master. Seems bizarre to me but if there is some truth in this, then could this explain the delay in ordering abandon ship?

TudorSailor

Italy is one of the few nations with a precise Navigation Code (one of the six foundation codes of the Republic) that determines the loss of ownership in case of MAYDAY. The court then re-assigns shared ownership to those who rescued crew and passengers and salvaged the ship. The owners usually are left with crums, but more likely debts to repay local authorities for damage and cleanup. This is the same code that makes a criminal offence for a Captain to abandon his ship without ensuring that nobody else is left on-board unless there are attenuating circumstances.

If you cruise in Italian waters with your yacht, think twice before sending a MAYDAY if you just feel sick (like it happens in the UK) because the authorities have automatically a claim on the vessel.

Are there any other countries with such specific Code?

 

[haydude]

The only thing that surprises me is that the engineer expected the ship to float with three compartments flooded, because one of the things that "every cadet knows" is that cargo ships are built to a "one compartment standard" and passenger ships are built to a "two compartment standard" meaning that cargo ships should float with any one compartment open to the sea and passengers ships should float with any two compartments open to the sea.

Apparently it has something to do with designer's and crew's pride that their ship is built to "exceed standards". It might as well be the case although I think that the certification was following the standard two compartments. It will be also difficult to determine the thruth because every party will tell their most convenient thruth when this shifts responsibilities in a court case. The owner and manufacturer clearly will stick to the lower specifications, whilst the crew with the higher specifications that they were told which was used in their assessment of the situation.

 

[onesea]

That is interesting but does not change the fact that the ship had suffered substantial damage and loss of power, to me it was clearly a Mayday, whether that Mayday would include Abandoning ship could be determined later but the delay in declaring a Mayday IMHO almost certainly caused loss of life. The decision was clearly the Captains not the owners that is his job.

Lets just hope the black box has recorded any conversations between master and owner...

Italy is one of the few nations with a precise Navigation Code (one of the six foundation codes of the Republic) that determines the loss of ownership in case of MAYDAY. The court then re-assigns shared ownership to those who rescued crew and passengers and salvaged the ship. The owners usually are left with crums, but more likely debts to repay local authorities for damage and cleanup. This is the same code that makes a criminal offence for a Captain to abandon his ship without ensuring that nobody else is left on-board unless there are attenuating circumstances.

If you cruise in Italian waters with your yacht, think twice before sending a MAYDAY if you just feel sick (like it happens in the UK) because the authorities have automatically a claim on the vessel.

Are there any other countries with such specific Code?

Would make master, owner or any one else reluctant to call a mayday?

 

[haydude]

Lets just hope the black box has recorded any conversations between master and owner...

There are environmental sound recordings of the cockpit, however it was reported that the Captain was walking up and down the cockpit whilst on the phone so it depends on microphones' quality, orientation and background noise. Also there will be only his side of the phone conversation.

Would make master, owner or any one else reluctant to call a mayday?

Let me think about it ... YES.

If I were there I would call a mayday only if and when I am certain that I am going to loose my 100K Euros yacht and mine and crews' life are at risk anyway. Otherwise is a PAN PAN.

50 minutes to realize that you are loosing a 500 million Euros nearly new ship without any warning watsoever are really, really short.

 

[Kukri]

There are environmental sound recordings of the cockpit, however it was reported that the Captain was walking up and down the cockpit whilst on the phone so it depends on microphones' quality, orientation and background noise. Also there will be only his side of the phone conversation.



Let me think about it ... YES.

If I were there I would call a mayday only if and when I am certain that I am going to loose my 100K Euros yacht and mine and crews' life are at risk anyway. Otherwise is a PAN PAN.

50 minutes to realize that you are loosing a 500 million Euros nearly new ship without any warning watsoever are really, really short.

Very, very, good point. It took Captain Smith that long or longer to realise that he was going to lose the TITANIC and only then because Thomas Andrews, her designer, who was on board, assured him that it was a "mathematical certainty".

The designer was not on board the COSTA CONCORDIA; there will have been phone calls from Costa's people ashore to RINA and to the Fincantieri design department.

 

[Boomshanka]

Channel 4, 8pm tonight:

Terror at Sea: The Sinking of the Concordia - The £400 million cruise ship sank on Friday 13th…

The £400 million cruise ship sank on Friday 13th January, 2012 off the Italian coast. This special pieces together the mistakes that were made that led to the disaster. At an impressive 290m long and 31m high, the ship was a palace. So how did this boat, hailed as a glorious example of modern technology, sink? Featuring exclusive interviews with survivors, rescuers and world-renowned experts.

 

[glashen]

Very, very, good point. It took Captain Smith that long or longer to realise that he was going to lose the TITANIC and only then because Thomas Andrews, her designer, who was on board, assured him that it was a "mathematical certainty".

The designer was not on board the COSTA CONCORDIA; there will have been phone calls from Costa's people ashore to RINA and to the Fincantieri design department.

But under the modern definition of Mayday it does not mean that there is danger of loss of the ship but that: "a life-threatening emergency" as occurred. I cannot see how that could not be the case here and whilst I understand the reluctance of the owners and indeed the captain, it is the captain's responsibility to declare a Mayday immediately he becomes aware of that life threatening situation.

On the issue of Italian law it would no doubt have made plenty of work for lawyers if the abandonment had been eventually averted but not half as much as they have now.

 

[Ron Dean]

Channel 4, 8pm tonight:

Terror at Sea: The Sinking of the Concordia - The £400 million cruise ship sank on Friday 13th…

The £400 million cruise ship sank on Friday 13th January, 2012 off the Italian coast. This special pieces together the mistakes that were made that led to the disaster. At an impressive 290m long and 31m high, the ship was a palace. So how did this boat, hailed as a glorious example of modern technology, sink? Featuring exclusive interviews with survivors, rescuers and world-renowned experts.

For a programme summary:-

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/t...-the-concordia

 

[Kukri]

For a programme summary:-

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/t...-the-concordia

"page not found" - phone call from lawyers maybe?

 

[bignick]

Its listed as being shown at 8pm on ch4:

http://www.channel4.com/tv-listings/daily/2012/01/31#C4_20:00

 

[SAWDOC]

Excellent informed discussion on this thread, particularly from Minn and Haydude, which added to my understanding of the stuation having watched the Chnl 4 program - thanks!